Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Fate's Purvey of Intentions and what does it mean?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    Originally posted by Peachy Joe View Post
    Can Fate Knowing discern the intention behind a pledge? For example, suppose a clever lawyer writes a contract which looks like an inheritance tax loophole, like s contract to set up a trust, but which he secretly intends to use to steal the money. Suppose a high intelligence character with a law background could work it out. Could an Acanthus cast a spell to know the intention?
    I'd say yes.

    Leave a comment:


  • Peachy Joe
    replied
    Can Fate Knowing discern the intention behind a pledge? For example, suppose a clever lawyer writes a contract which looks like an inheritance tax loophole, like s contract to set up a trust, but which he secretly intends to use to steal the money. Suppose a high intelligence character with a law background could work it out. Could an Acanthus cast a spell to know the intention?

    Leave a comment:


  • Shadowjim12
    replied
    As an Acanthus-minded player, I agree. Fate is not the "fast" Arcanum to manifest your will in the Fallen World before Mastery (or Archmastery). Obrimos can zap with lightning the moment he masters the Fraying of Forces. Mastigos can make people Mind-puppets with just Ruling of Mind. The Acanthus can only achieve such instant displays at Making of Fate with the Miracle spell. Before Mastery of Fate, those who walk the Path of the Lunargent Thorns must wait for days, weeks, months or even years to gain whatever favor they asked for. (Unless, you are a simple man and ask for reasonable things. But who does that...)

    Although Fate takes its time, it is as much a versatile Arcanum as is a powerful one. Sure small boons and hexes seem boring but if you play them right you can achieve Road Runner (from Looney Toons) Levels of luck complete with "Acme" named anvils falling from the sky. It's all about TIME-ing

    Leave a comment:


  • Scarlet Witch
    replied
    Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post
    Hmmmm....so what you're saying is that intention is...more like the manifest reason behind an outcome? As in a parent desires their child to become an adult in time so they give challenges for the child to overcome. The challenges would be the destiny, but the intention is that of maturation? If so that seems too close to an abstract concept for the arcanum of Fate to have any purview over before Archmastery.
    I would say so, but, I should note that the specifics of a destiny arent set in stone without Time. No Time, no specifics.

    Destiny can make you kill your mom and marry your mom. Groooossss gross gross, but, without the intention for the tale to be a tragedy, this destiny could cause something yucky like Oedipus deciding "hey shes my mom but we get along great! time to just relax, its fine!"

    So destiny fulfilled but Oedipus doesnt cut his eyes out. No intention in the destiny? no mother suicide.

    Fate spells kinda have to be understood with fae-logic. The "story" is the effect. so the targets are stortstructures or game mechanics

    Edit: caveat, subjects still have to be persons places or things, but AFTER the spell is cast its all sorta "I-dunno" unless your archmage and can then literally target abstract concepts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Falcon777
    replied
    Hmmmm....so what you're saying is that intention is...more like the manifest reason behind an outcome? As in a parent desires their child to become an adult in time so they give challenges for the child to overcome. The challenges would be the destiny, but the intention is that of maturation? If so that seems too close to an abstract concept for the arcanum of Fate to have any purview over before Archmastery.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scarlet Witch
    replied
    I don't think I can argue it well as I should but I think the answer is in myth. Destiny and intentions might be synonyms but their tone is different enough to see fine usage, as with any synonyms.

    Lets try this. Oedipus is destined to marry his mother and kill his father, but his Intentions-in-Fate is "Tragedy of inescapable Destiny"

    I might give someone a terrible fate but the intention behind it might be to learn a lesson of some kind.

    Now again these to me are synonyms of sorts, so they're close enough you usually don't need a difference. The only time it should come up is like, I dunno, the practice of dynamics? When my acanthus player went archmage thats when we both started really thinking hard on what fate even is.

    So you can be destined to marry your mom and kill your father, but what if the intention wasnt "tragedy" but something else?

    Leave a comment:


  • Falcon777
    replied
    Perhaps. If that's the meaning though then I personally find it unnecessary for Fate to have intentions as being listed under the purview of Fate. I see Destinies being the broader purview under which such intentions would fall. Perhaps this is the Mastigos in me rising up, but as I see it such "intentions" are simply the desires of Fate (whether springing naturally or from Acanthus not really being relevant here) made manifest. Perhaps my understanding is poor, but I really can't distinguish marking someone or something as being "intended" for something from the intention being the person's/thing's destination (aka, destiny). It'd be easier to understand if there was some other published Fate spell that clearly dealt with such a thing, or perhaps a published mystery directly related to the intentions purview.

    I guess what I'm saying is that to me there is no nuance. The way you have described them is the same to me.
    Last edited by Falcon777; 11-04-2018, 05:38 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scarlet Witch
    replied
    Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post

    Funny enough, I do actually primarily play Mastigos, so...yeah, you've pegged my confusion quite nicely. Well said.

    Also, thanks for clearing up my confusion. Yes, you are absolutely correct. I think part of my confusion comes from the fact that I would personally label such "intentions" as destinies and keep the word intention entirely to it's synonym of will, which would fall more under Mind. But then again Fate is not something I'm very well acquainted with, so yeah.
    I would hazard that they *are* synonyms here, being keywords and all. There might be nuances though

    Leave a comment:


  • Falcon777
    replied
    Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post

    I think you misunderstood me. Satchel I think caught onto what I meant.

    The intentions being targetted do not belong to what we normally think of free-willed agents. If you want to control my willful intentions, you need Mind, because your target are my ego's intentions. However, if you want to control what I am intended for, in the subtle metaphysical sense, you need to use Fate. I can act against what I am intended for, but you *have absolute control over what I am intended for*. Your definition of control IS available to an Acanthus, but, the control is absolute over something you're unusued to thinking of as a subject. I hope that doesn't sound condescending though, what I'm saying is that I think you're thinking about this as a Mastigos would. Which is great if you *do* play mastigos!

    But the Acanthus-mains I've met all don't really *care* what a person' wants to do of their own free will, they like messing with what a person will wind up doing irregardless of their free-will. That's what fate does. Acanthus have gross absolute control of *those* intentions, the intentions you cannot sense. They, the acanthus, can, but, we non-acanthus don't sense those. We have our intentions-of-will, but not our intented-purposes.

    Maybe it is because I'm not a Mastigos and don't have the drive to overcome such an obstacle, but, as a Thyrsus, I can appreciate the quandry of being at the whims of fate--you can struggle at first but its prooobably a good idea to cow and make your willful intentions the same as the intended fate for you. It's easier that way, until you find a loophole.

    Fate's vaguely mythical-story logic is difficult, always up for debate, and a head-scratcher. I'm glad this discussion got started even if someone overthrows my position, but in the meantime I hope this was helpful.
    Funny enough, I do actually primarily play Mastigos, so...yeah, you've pegged my confusion quite nicely. Well said.

    Also, thanks for clearing up my confusion. Yes, you are absolutely correct. I think part of my confusion comes from the fact that I would personally label such "intentions" as destinies and keep the word intention entirely to it's synonym of will, which would fall more under Mind. But then again Fate is not something I'm very well acquainted with, so yeah.

    Leave a comment:


  • proindrakenzol
    replied
    Let's take something simple like getting a job.

    Jeanne wants to get a job at Agate Trail; both Urania the Acanthus and Lethe the Mastigos want Jeanne to fail.

    Lethe could use Mind to change Jeanne's mind about wanting to get the job, make her forget (appropriate to the Shadow Name) the job existed, or simply puppet her through a disastrous interview to ensure Jeanne can't get the job. It'd be very direct action on Lethe's part.

    Urania would instead use Fate to make Jeanne getting the job fated to not happen. Jeanne's application would get lost or a server error would cause it not to be submitted. She'd get sick on the day of the interview, or her car would break down. It would seem to Jeanne as if the universe were conspiring against her to keep her from even making it to where humans might get to decide if she got the job, and she'd be right. Depending on the spell used and Jeanne's determination things could even get decidedly deadly for her.

    That's the difference between Fate and Mind for something like intentions; Mind can change someone's mind, Fate changes the Universe to foil or promote an action.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scarlet Witch
    replied
    Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post

    Indeed. You also have to consider what exactly it is that you are controlling. Fate can control intentions (as can Mind, and of course most proper Mastigos would probably encourage the more subtle approach over raw mind control if only for wisdom's sake), but the actual interaction between characters is that of manipulation (which, as you have stated, generally works better).

    So, Fate can do both control and manipulation, just depending on what it's doing.
    I think you misunderstood me. Satchel I think caught onto what I meant.

    The intentions being targetted do not belong to what we normally think of free-willed agents. If you want to control my willful intentions, you need Mind, because your target are my ego's intentions. However, if you want to control what I am intended for, in the subtle metaphysical sense, you need to use Fate. I can act against what I am intended for, but you *have absolute control over what I am intended for*. Your definition of control IS available to an Acanthus, but, the control is absolute over something you're unusued to thinking of as a subject. I hope that doesn't sound condescending though, what I'm saying is that I think you're thinking about this as a Mastigos would. Which is great if you *do* play mastigos!

    But the Acanthus-mains I've met all don't really *care* what a person' wants to do of their own free will, they like messing with what a person will wind up doing irregardless of their free-will. That's what fate does. Acanthus have gross absolute control of *those* intentions, the intentions you cannot sense. They, the acanthus, can, but, we non-acanthus don't sense those. We have our intentions-of-will, but not our intented-purposes.

    Maybe it is because I'm not a Mastigos and don't have the drive to overcome such an obstacle, but, as a Thyrsus, I can appreciate the quandry of being at the whims of fate--you can struggle at first but its prooobably a good idea to cow and make your willful intentions the same as the intended fate for you. It's easier that way, until you find a loophole.

    Fate's vaguely mythical-story logic is difficult, always up for debate, and a head-scratcher. I'm glad this discussion got started even if someone overthrows my position, but in the meantime I hope this was helpful.

    Leave a comment:


  • Falcon777
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    This is a definition of control that is specifically too coarse for the average Acanthus to bother with when the ability to steer people into thinking the things you get them to do were their own idea serves just as readily. Fate doesn't do mind-control, because that's what Mind is for; ditto any other means of whole-concept direction that doesn't get there through a certain amount of give-and-take in the interface.
    Indeed. You also have to consider what exactly it is that you are controlling. Fate can control intentions (as can Mind, and of course most proper Mastigos would probably encourage the more subtle approach over raw mind control if only for wisdom's sake), but the actual interaction between characters is that of manipulation (which, as you have stated, generally works better).

    So, Fate can do both control and manipulation, just depending on what it's doing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post
    Hmm...I guess I'm going by a slightly different definition of control. When I say control, I mean that nothing else can happen.
    This is a definition of control that is specifically too coarse for the average Acanthus to bother with when the ability to steer people into thinking the things you get them to do were their own idea serves just as readily. Fate doesn't do mind-control, because that's what Mind is for; ditto any other means of whole-concept direction that doesn't get there through a certain amount of give-and-take in the interface.

    Leave a comment:


  • Falcon777
    replied
    Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post

    I'd say it definitely controls intentions. The subjects willful intentions might not change but what they are "intended *for*" in terms of fate *has* been grossly altered. Fate someone to kill someone they love, and no matter how much they didnt meant to, they were intended for that purpose.
    Hmm...I guess I'm going by a slightly different definition of control. When I say control, I mean that nothing else can happen. I'm talking about the level of control that comes from Psychic Domination: they simply obey. The Divine Intervention spell does hex you if you don't go along with it's wishes (whether goad or ban), but a hex doesn't actually force you to do anything. Granted it also comes with a new aspiration as a goad, but even that is still just manipulation. You don't have to pursue your aspirations.

    That being said, I can see how the alteration of an aspiration could be considered control instead of manipulation...meh, it's really mostly just semantics at that point.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scarlet Witch
    replied
    Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post
    The Divine Intervention spell gives you a new aspiration if it is a goad and directly hinders you if it is a ban. I would say that's interacting directly with intentions. It's definitely manipulation instead of absolute control, but it's definitely interacting with it.
    Id say it definitely controls intentions. The subjects willful intentions might not change but what they are "intended *for*" in terms of fate *has* been grossly altered. Fate someone to kill someone they love, and no matter how much they didnt meant to, they were intended for that purpose.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X