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Fate's Purvey of Intentions and what does it mean?

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  • Fate's Purvey of Intentions and what does it mean?

    There are a lot of purviews that aren't touched on very well with published spells (across all of the Arcana), like 'intentions' for Fate. I'd really like to see what kinds of things people can come up with to make those work.
    As Inodiv mentioned in a previous thread, some of the Arcana have purviews that are mentioned in their description, but seemingly have no example spells to provide insight on how those purviews will actually work in relation to the Arcana. It got me thinking and I couldn't come up with a satisfactory answer (in the 10 minutes I was thinking about it), only more questions.

    So let's discuss it!

    The example he gave was Fate and Intentions.

    So how does Fate magic affect intentions? How much would this overlap with Mind magic affecting intentions? What would the differences be? Can I completely change someones intentions, or only manipulate them? Are the intentions I can affect specific choices an individual makes (like choosing the box to the left instead of the one on the right)? Is it more general and I can affect what that thug intends to do with the gun he just pulled out?

    Personally I'm not clear on how Intentions would be covered by Fate at all, but I'm interested in hearing what other people think.
    Last edited by TenguGrib; 10-31-2018, 08:01 PM. Reason: fixing a couple stupid typos

  • #2
    Forge Destiny grants Aspirations and Obsessions which are things you intend to do. Fate could easily identify those as well. It may also be possible to read what a subject of a Knowing spell intends to do in a scene. Stuff like that.

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    • #3
      I could see a Fate Knowing spell telling you whether someone is being sincere or acting in good faith when they say something. Think of all the fairy tales where someone gets into trouble because of a hastily made promise or because something they say is taken literally or because etiquette is broken.

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      • #4
        We've allowed a Fate conjunctional on Divination for the user to be able to account for the effects of changing intentions on the forseen future.

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        • #5
          I've asked for Fate 2 to put intentions on a spell to make it do very simple things that are not intuitive otherwise. A gravity spell that follows its subject to propel them into orbit, and I think the oath type spells already fit this. I agree its still a little lacking but it feels explored.

          This topic helps though. knowing someones meaning and intent is something prime lacks. I would definitely love having a prime 2 fate 2 spell that imparts the subject with undeniable good will charisma, or using fate 2 to "parry" an obrimos who us telling the truth but for the wrong intent

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          • #6
            Wait why did no one call me on my glaring and repeated typo? Purvey should be Purview in all instances.

            Originally posted by espritdecalmar View Post
            I could see a Fate Knowing spell telling you whether someone is being sincere or acting in good faith when they say something. Think of all the fairy tales where someone gets into trouble because of a hastily made promise or because something they say is taken literally or because etiquette is broken.
            So comparing current actions with intent and looking for discrepancies, I like that.

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            • #7
              The Divine Intervention spell gives you a new aspiration if it is a goad and directly hinders you if it is a ban. I would say that's interacting directly with intentions. It's definitely manipulation instead of absolute control, but it's definitely interacting with it.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post
                The Divine Intervention spell gives you a new aspiration if it is a goad and directly hinders you if it is a ban. I would say that's interacting directly with intentions. It's definitely manipulation instead of absolute control, but it's definitely interacting with it.
                Id say it definitely controls intentions. The subjects willful intentions might not change but what they are "intended *for*" in terms of fate *has* been grossly altered. Fate someone to kill someone they love, and no matter how much they didnt meant to, they were intended for that purpose.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post

                  I'd say it definitely controls intentions. The subjects willful intentions might not change but what they are "intended *for*" in terms of fate *has* been grossly altered. Fate someone to kill someone they love, and no matter how much they didnt meant to, they were intended for that purpose.
                  Hmm...I guess I'm going by a slightly different definition of control. When I say control, I mean that nothing else can happen. I'm talking about the level of control that comes from Psychic Domination: they simply obey. The Divine Intervention spell does hex you if you don't go along with it's wishes (whether goad or ban), but a hex doesn't actually force you to do anything. Granted it also comes with a new aspiration as a goad, but even that is still just manipulation. You don't have to pursue your aspirations.

                  That being said, I can see how the alteration of an aspiration could be considered control instead of manipulation...meh, it's really mostly just semantics at that point.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post
                    Hmm...I guess I'm going by a slightly different definition of control. When I say control, I mean that nothing else can happen.
                    This is a definition of control that is specifically too coarse for the average Acanthus to bother with when the ability to steer people into thinking the things you get them to do were their own idea serves just as readily. Fate doesn't do mind-control, because that's what Mind is for; ditto any other means of whole-concept direction that doesn't get there through a certain amount of give-and-take in the interface.


                    Resident Lore-Hound
                    Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                      This is a definition of control that is specifically too coarse for the average Acanthus to bother with when the ability to steer people into thinking the things you get them to do were their own idea serves just as readily. Fate doesn't do mind-control, because that's what Mind is for; ditto any other means of whole-concept direction that doesn't get there through a certain amount of give-and-take in the interface.
                      Indeed. You also have to consider what exactly it is that you are controlling. Fate can control intentions (as can Mind, and of course most proper Mastigos would probably encourage the more subtle approach over raw mind control if only for wisdom's sake), but the actual interaction between characters is that of manipulation (which, as you have stated, generally works better).

                      So, Fate can do both control and manipulation, just depending on what it's doing.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post

                        Indeed. You also have to consider what exactly it is that you are controlling. Fate can control intentions (as can Mind, and of course most proper Mastigos would probably encourage the more subtle approach over raw mind control if only for wisdom's sake), but the actual interaction between characters is that of manipulation (which, as you have stated, generally works better).

                        So, Fate can do both control and manipulation, just depending on what it's doing.
                        I think you misunderstood me. Satchel I think caught onto what I meant.

                        The intentions being targetted do not belong to what we normally think of free-willed agents. If you want to control my willful intentions, you need Mind, because your target are my ego's intentions. However, if you want to control what I am intended for, in the subtle metaphysical sense, you need to use Fate. I can act against what I am intended for, but you *have absolute control over what I am intended for*. Your definition of control IS available to an Acanthus, but, the control is absolute over something you're unusued to thinking of as a subject. I hope that doesn't sound condescending though, what I'm saying is that I think you're thinking about this as a Mastigos would. Which is great if you *do* play mastigos!

                        But the Acanthus-mains I've met all don't really *care* what a person' wants to do of their own free will, they like messing with what a person will wind up doing irregardless of their free-will. That's what fate does. Acanthus have gross absolute control of *those* intentions, the intentions you cannot sense. They, the acanthus, can, but, we non-acanthus don't sense those. We have our intentions-of-will, but not our intented-purposes.

                        Maybe it is because I'm not a Mastigos and don't have the drive to overcome such an obstacle, but, as a Thyrsus, I can appreciate the quandry of being at the whims of fate--you can struggle at first but its prooobably a good idea to cow and make your willful intentions the same as the intended fate for you. It's easier that way, until you find a loophole.

                        Fate's vaguely mythical-story logic is difficult, always up for debate, and a head-scratcher. I'm glad this discussion got started even if someone overthrows my position, but in the meantime I hope this was helpful.

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                        • #13
                          Let's take something simple like getting a job.

                          Jeanne wants to get a job at Agate Trail; both Urania the Acanthus and Lethe the Mastigos want Jeanne to fail.

                          Lethe could use Mind to change Jeanne's mind about wanting to get the job, make her forget (appropriate to the Shadow Name) the job existed, or simply puppet her through a disastrous interview to ensure Jeanne can't get the job. It'd be very direct action on Lethe's part.

                          Urania would instead use Fate to make Jeanne getting the job fated to not happen. Jeanne's application would get lost or a server error would cause it not to be submitted. She'd get sick on the day of the interview, or her car would break down. It would seem to Jeanne as if the universe were conspiring against her to keep her from even making it to where humans might get to decide if she got the job, and she'd be right. Depending on the spell used and Jeanne's determination things could even get decidedly deadly for her.

                          That's the difference between Fate and Mind for something like intentions; Mind can change someone's mind, Fate changes the Universe to foil or promote an action.


                          Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post

                            I think you misunderstood me. Satchel I think caught onto what I meant.

                            The intentions being targetted do not belong to what we normally think of free-willed agents. If you want to control my willful intentions, you need Mind, because your target are my ego's intentions. However, if you want to control what I am intended for, in the subtle metaphysical sense, you need to use Fate. I can act against what I am intended for, but you *have absolute control over what I am intended for*. Your definition of control IS available to an Acanthus, but, the control is absolute over something you're unusued to thinking of as a subject. I hope that doesn't sound condescending though, what I'm saying is that I think you're thinking about this as a Mastigos would. Which is great if you *do* play mastigos!

                            But the Acanthus-mains I've met all don't really *care* what a person' wants to do of their own free will, they like messing with what a person will wind up doing irregardless of their free-will. That's what fate does. Acanthus have gross absolute control of *those* intentions, the intentions you cannot sense. They, the acanthus, can, but, we non-acanthus don't sense those. We have our intentions-of-will, but not our intented-purposes.

                            Maybe it is because I'm not a Mastigos and don't have the drive to overcome such an obstacle, but, as a Thyrsus, I can appreciate the quandry of being at the whims of fate--you can struggle at first but its prooobably a good idea to cow and make your willful intentions the same as the intended fate for you. It's easier that way, until you find a loophole.

                            Fate's vaguely mythical-story logic is difficult, always up for debate, and a head-scratcher. I'm glad this discussion got started even if someone overthrows my position, but in the meantime I hope this was helpful.
                            Funny enough, I do actually primarily play Mastigos, so...yeah, you've pegged my confusion quite nicely. Well said.

                            Also, thanks for clearing up my confusion. Yes, you are absolutely correct. I think part of my confusion comes from the fact that I would personally label such "intentions" as destinies and keep the word intention entirely to it's synonym of will, which would fall more under Mind. But then again Fate is not something I'm very well acquainted with, so yeah.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post

                              Funny enough, I do actually primarily play Mastigos, so...yeah, you've pegged my confusion quite nicely. Well said.

                              Also, thanks for clearing up my confusion. Yes, you are absolutely correct. I think part of my confusion comes from the fact that I would personally label such "intentions" as destinies and keep the word intention entirely to it's synonym of will, which would fall more under Mind. But then again Fate is not something I'm very well acquainted with, so yeah.
                              I would hazard that they *are* synonyms here, being keywords and all. There might be nuances though

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