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On the subject of practices and the necessity of conjunctional Arcana

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  • #16
    It's primarily because Shadow Crafting is altering the properties of shadow to give it physical form.
    That doesn't turn it into "matter" the same way as if you had turned it into lead or air (which would have required Conjunctive Matter, for Death 4, Matter 4), it's solidified Shadow.
    Solidity isn't the sole purview of matter, living organisms are also solid, but Matter can't disrupt that.

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    • #17
      The weirdness about the whole thing is that Death treats shadows as if they were something that can be solidified. Shadow Crafting takes an absence of light and transforms it into physical presence. Such kinds of transformations lies solidly in the Practice of Patterning, not Weaving. Can Death do the same with cold? Can Forces do it with fire, light, heat, sound, radiation, etc? Can Mind fashion a sword shaped blade out of thought? I really don't think so.
      How Death treats shadows really does break the rules for how the Arcana and Practices are supposed to work.


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      • #18
        I guess it's because Shadows already have a "presence", Weaving just turns that presence from an "immaterial" one to a "physical" one.
        Much like how Matter 3 can change substances from Gas, to Liquid, to Solids.
        "Solid Shadows" just seems like another state.

        It's weird, but we're playing with an Arcanum that doesn't really have much standing in science to go on.

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        • #19
          Perhaps, but I don’t see why the same can’t be said about other even more tangible things like fire or electricity. Those things certainly have a presence as well, so it would make sense that they can be affected in the same way.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by THE DUNKENING View Post
            Perhaps, but I don’t see why the same can’t be said about other even more tangible things like fire or electricity. Those things certainly have a presence as well, so it would make sense that they can be affected in the same way.
            Well sure.
            Telekinetic constructs, hard-light objects, fire-swords.

            All this stuff is symbolic as hell.

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            • #21
              Yea it’s all possible, the only question is whether or not you need conjuctional Matter to to it. According to Death, you do not.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by THE DUNKENING View Post
                Yea it’s all possible, the only question is whether or not you need conjuctional Matter to to it. According to Death, you do not.
                You are correct, you do not.
                Because you are not turning anything into Matter, or using any properties of Matter that nothing else cannot touch.
                You are changing the properties of energy with Forces, or Shadows for Death.

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                • #23
                  Ok, that makes sense. I think I got thrown off from proindrakenzol’s posts. I think he is under the impression that you would need matter, unless I am misunderstanding them (which could be likely)

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                  • #24
                    I'm surprised that the difference between Life and Matter hasn't been discussed in this thread at all.

                    HerbertIsBestBert mentioned that it's "symbolic as hell"; that's honestly an understatement. It's all symbols. It's not that something is symbolic of something. What matters is the symbol and nothing else.


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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post

                      What always bothered me with that spell is why the gear and clothes also turn into shadow without Matter, when for example the Shapechange spell in Life 4 requires Matter to do the same. It seems a bit arbitrary to be honest. Also there is no spell in Forces as far as I know that turns a subject into energy, would such a spell only require Forces to turn the person and his/her belongings to energy?
                      I honestly consider that spell to be a mistake that slipped through and that a lot of discussions about spellcraft become much easier when you ignore it.

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