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On the subject of practices and the necessity of conjunctional Arcana

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  • On the subject of practices and the necessity of conjunctional Arcana

    One thing that I'm currently struggling to piece through is how, in some cases, to determine whether or not a certain effect requires a second arcanum to accomplish (as the effect seems to be under the purview of another arcanum), or if the effect can be achieved through a single arcanum alone.
    As an example, there is a spell in Death that while requiring no other arcanum, allows you to create solid objects out of shadows. However, "Solids" is under the purview of Matter. So it seems to me that this implies that "The state of being solid" is not the way Matter's purview should be interpreted. Rather, "Things that are ordinarily solids" are under the purview of matter. Is this correct? because if that is true then that makes every individual arcanum much more versatile. You would only need three dots in Forces to make a blade of solid fire, or a pool of liquid lightning with no Matter required. Also you could not only make a suit of armor out of shadows with Death 3 Weaving, but you could use Death 3 Perfecting to increase its armor rating like the matter spell "Aegis". However, I am not 100% convinced that this is the way it is meant to be interpreted. I would appreciate any insight offered.

  • EW-Matias
    replied
    Originally posted by Aristarkos View Post

    What always bothered me with that spell is why the gear and clothes also turn into shadow without Matter, when for example the Shapechange spell in Life 4 requires Matter to do the same. It seems a bit arbitrary to be honest. Also there is no spell in Forces as far as I know that turns a subject into energy, would such a spell only require Forces to turn the person and his/her belongings to energy?
    I honestly consider that spell to be a mistake that slipped through and that a lot of discussions about spellcraft become much easier when you ignore it.

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  • Errol216
    replied
    I'm surprised that the difference between Life and Matter hasn't been discussed in this thread at all.

    HerbertIsBestBert mentioned that it's "symbolic as hell"; that's honestly an understatement. It's all symbols. It's not that something is symbolic of something. What matters is the symbol and nothing else.

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  • THE DUNKENING
    replied
    Ok, that makes sense. I think I got thrown off from proindrakenzol’s posts. I think he is under the impression that you would need matter, unless I am misunderstanding them (which could be likely)

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  • HerbertIsBestBert
    replied
    Originally posted by THE DUNKENING View Post
    Yea it’s all possible, the only question is whether or not you need conjuctional Matter to to it. According to Death, you do not.
    You are correct, you do not.
    Because you are not turning anything into Matter, or using any properties of Matter that nothing else cannot touch.
    You are changing the properties of energy with Forces, or Shadows for Death.

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  • THE DUNKENING
    replied
    Yea it’s all possible, the only question is whether or not you need conjuctional Matter to to it. According to Death, you do not.

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  • HerbertIsBestBert
    replied
    Originally posted by THE DUNKENING View Post
    Perhaps, but I don’t see why the same can’t be said about other even more tangible things like fire or electricity. Those things certainly have a presence as well, so it would make sense that they can be affected in the same way.
    Well sure.
    Telekinetic constructs, hard-light objects, fire-swords.

    All this stuff is symbolic as hell.

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  • THE DUNKENING
    replied
    Perhaps, but I don’t see why the same can’t be said about other even more tangible things like fire or electricity. Those things certainly have a presence as well, so it would make sense that they can be affected in the same way.

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  • HerbertIsBestBert
    replied
    I guess it's because Shadows already have a "presence", Weaving just turns that presence from an "immaterial" one to a "physical" one.
    Much like how Matter 3 can change substances from Gas, to Liquid, to Solids.
    "Solid Shadows" just seems like another state.

    It's weird, but we're playing with an Arcanum that doesn't really have much standing in science to go on.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    The weirdness about the whole thing is that Death treats shadows as if they were something that can be solidified. Shadow Crafting takes an absence of light and transforms it into physical presence. Such kinds of transformations lies solidly in the Practice of Patterning, not Weaving. Can Death do the same with cold? Can Forces do it with fire, light, heat, sound, radiation, etc? Can Mind fashion a sword shaped blade out of thought? I really don't think so.
    How Death treats shadows really does break the rules for how the Arcana and Practices are supposed to work.

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  • HerbertIsBestBert
    replied
    It's primarily because Shadow Crafting is altering the properties of shadow to give it physical form.
    That doesn't turn it into "matter" the same way as if you had turned it into lead or air (which would have required Conjunctive Matter, for Death 4, Matter 4), it's solidified Shadow.
    Solidity isn't the sole purview of matter, living organisms are also solid, but Matter can't disrupt that.

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  • THE DUNKENING
    replied
    Wait it doesn’t? I am sorry, I am getting confused. I can’t tell if the general consensus is that you can give things under an arcanum’s purview physical properties as if it were matter without conjunctions Matter it not. Because shadow crafting does that.

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  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    Shadowcrafting doesn’t really break the established guidelines. The one everyone trips over is Shadow Flesh.

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  • THE DUNKENING
    replied
    I’m getting the impression that, as Tessie has indicated, the source of my confusion is that death (or at least shadow crafting) doesn’t follow the established guidelines. I comprehend now the distinction you were making between being a fluid and acting according to fluid dynamics. My confusion stemmed from the perception that if matter is required to make something interact with physical matter as if it has the properties of a liquid, I didn’t see why the same wouldn’t be the case for making something act like a solid as is the case with shadow crafting (heck, the first sentence in the description of that spell is “the caster can morph and harden shadows into solid 3 dimensional forms”).

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Shadow Flesh is a really bad example since it does break the guidelines set previously in the book and doesn't work the same way as similar spells.

    Originally posted by THE DUNKENING View Post
    For clarification, I've been basing my understanding of purviews off of the literal purview listings at the beginning of each published spell section. For Matter, one of those things is "Solids". That is why I sought the clarification.
    My clarification is that just because something falls under one Arcanum doesn't mean it's exclusively tied to that Arcanum. If a type of solid falls under another Arcanum as well, that Arcanum is enough to affect the solid. See my above example with teeth and bones as solids still being able to be manipulated by Life.
    However, transforming your teeth into pure steel requires both Life and Matter because steel doesn't fall under Life as it's not organic or naturally occurring in other life forms. With transformations you have to use Arcana related to the subject both before and after the transformation. Your solid fire knife probably doesn't work without Matter because solid fire isn't really fire anymore.
    Last edited by Tessie; 11-03-2018, 04:12 PM.

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