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Isn't relinquishing a bit overpowered?

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  • Isn't relinquishing a bit overpowered?

    I mean, as far as I can see there is no limit on the number of spells a mage can relinquish by using a permanent dot of willpower.

    Since getting that dot back will only cost you 1xp relinquishing looks really in-expensive ( permanent spell on you for 1xp? Sold!).
    I can immagine that veteran mage could have dozens of perma-effect in place.

    Isn't that a bit overpowered? There isn't anything to balance this feature?

    Even more, in Mage the Ascension there was the pattern-bleeding mechanic and permadox, which stopped you from altering your pattern with magic for too much time or from stacking too many perma-effect, As much as I read Awakening 2nd edition I can't find anything similar.
    Am I missing something?
    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 11-03-2018, 03:23 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Undead rabbit View Post
    I mean, as far as I can see there is no limit on the number of spells a mage can relinquish by using a permanent dot of willpower.

    Since getting that dot back will only cost you 1xp relinquishing looks really in-expensive ( permanent spell on you for 1xp? Sold!).
    I can immagine that veteran mage could have dozens of perma-effect in place.
    1xp is still 5 beats, it's not trivial. But, yes, a powerful Mage would likely have several permanent spells doing various things.

    Isn't that a bit overpowered? There isn't anything to balance this feature?
    Spells can be dispelled. If a spell is permanently dispelled then the Mage that originally cast it is SOL on xp used, no Sanctity of Merits covers the loss.

    Even more, in Mage the Ascension there was the pattern-bleeding mechanic and permadox, which stopped you from altering your pattern with magic for too much time or from stacking too many perma-effect, As much as I read Awakening 2nd edition I can't find anything similar.
    Am I missing something?
    There was such a thing in 1e in that you'd take penalties for spells on you over your Stamina rating, but this was intentionally removed in 2e because it doesn't make sense in the context of Awakening's lore, it was purely a relic from Ascension.


    Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology; Priests of the Watchful Eternity - a 2e Silver Ladder Moros Legacy (Life/Death) of Mages that enhance Mortals to fight strange entities

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    • #3
      1 XP is cheap... but it's not that cheap just to stop having something count towards your Spell Control.

      One of the biggest counters to this is a simple Prime 1 spell. Dispelling relinquished spells using the +2 Reach option means that the caster of the original spell doesn't know anything's happening to it. Unless they have active Mage Sight up to notice, that relinquished spell could poof before they'd have a chance to counter the dispellation. And no XP refund if that happens (or if the dispel goes off despite a counter).

      So, considering that a starting level PC could possibly strip a veteran mage of all their relinquished spells with a good roll, while the veteran is still responding to their peripheral Mage Sight tingling, and at a minimum means recasting and relinquishing them again... it gets expensive pretty fast.

      There also isn't pattern bleeding or permanent paradox in Awakening like there was in Ascension. Just not how things fly. Awakening doesn't smack you down for using magic, it smacks you around with the consequences of what your magic does.

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      • #4
        This would depend upon your chronicle and how much Mage vs Mage you have going on, but all of those relinquished spells could easily turn into a big 'kick me' sign for any Seers wandering by. If you didn't veil them they will even set of Peripheral Mage Sight.

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        • #5
          You might find it useful to not think of things as being overpowered in Mage.

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          • #6
            There are several limiting factors:

            1. Effective relinquishment requires persistent duration, which is -10 worth of modifiers, and several reach (assuming Primary Factor isn't Duration). This means the actual "effect" may not be as great as you might like, ignoring cheesy Fate/Prime spell enhancement and Condition use/abuse
            2. You have no control over Relinquished spells, so you cannot cancel them if they start to cause problems, decrease their factors, or otherwise exert the kind of control over a spell which a Mage might otherwise appreciate
            3. Relinquished spells can still be Dispelled, quite easily I might add
            4. Relinquished spells clash with the stats you had when you relinquished them (I think), so a Shielding might be less than excellent
            5. Relinquished spells can still be Dissonance'd away. So beware when deciding what to relinquish
            6. Relinquished spells still trigger Quiescence in Sleepers if they're aware of the effect's impossibility
            7. Relinquished spells effectively cost 1xp per spell
            8. Relinquished spells are a big "hey, I'm a Mage" sign as they will remain active constantly, barring the existence of any similarly relinquished Veiling spells
            9. Depending on the NPC, certain relinquished spells can provoke negative reactions. "Oh, he has to rely on his Mind Arcanum to be socially competent", "he's unreasonably paranoid, running around with a Kinetic Barrier 24/7", "a constant Prime Veiling effect? What he has got to hide"?

            That being said, relinquished spells do have a place in games, even beyond cheesy Mind/Life persistent stat boosts.

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            • #7
              I'm 13 sessions into both of my games with Gnosis 2 and 3 multiple Disciple-level Mages and no one has relinquished a spell yet.

              Relinquish 4 spells or buy Death 4.... so far my players would rather have the arcana boost, but I could see it down the line at some point.

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              • #8
                I don't think you can relinquish more than one spell for 1 wp dot. I think its *per* spell. This means 10 spells would cost 10xp. Its insanely expensive! And insanely important to choose the right spell.

                As a Thyrsus, currying favor with spirits often gets me having to relinquish spells to please them. So I am in the camp that wishes there was a way to get it cheaper, at least for cultivating my spirit relations. But I try to play spirit-heavy scenarios...

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post
                  I don't think you can relinquish more than one spell for 1 wp dot. I think its *per* spell. This means 10 spells would cost 10xp. Its insanely expensive! And insanely important to choose the right spell.

                  As a Thyrsus, currying favor with spirits often gets me having to relinquish spells to please them. So I am in the camp that wishes there was a way to get it cheaper, at least for cultivating my spirit relations. But I try to play spirit-heavy scenarios...
                  Grab Prime 4 and get an exceptional success on an Imbue Item roll so that you can relinquish safely for a point instead of a dot?

                  Or negotiate the spirits down to week long benefits so that you can "unsafely" relinquish with the spell ending before it can start to degrade. Perhaps throw in a service contract where you update the spell on a weekly basis for a month or two.


                  Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology; Priests of the Watchful Eternity - a 2e Silver Ladder Moros Legacy (Life/Death) of Mages that enhance Mortals to fight strange entities

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

                    Grab Prime 4 and get an exceptional success on an Imbue Item roll so that you can relinquish safely for a point instead of a dot?

                    Or negotiate the spirits down to week long benefits so that you can "unsafely" relinquish with the spell ending before it can start to degrade. Perhaps throw in a service contract where you update the spell on a weekly basis for a month or two.
                    great suggestions. for the second one my character is doing a walk the earth and is still at gnosis 1 and no arcana higher than 2 so quiite early in things. Ill see what I can do ;o

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                    • #11
                      Ask your ST if non-humans can carry spells like Sleepwalkers. If yes, any spirit you have Medium Sympathy with can then carry one spell for you while you still retain control over the spell and can reduce spell factors or completely cancel it if the spirit displeases you.

                      Otherwise I really recommend not granting costly boons to such fickle entities unless you can somehow ensure that they'll hold up their end of the deal indefinitely. In my games a mage who safely relinquishes spells for spirits is likely being used by those spirits, unless one of those spells is the Familiar spell.


                      Bloodline: The Stygians
                      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

                        Or negotiate the spirits down to week long benefits so that you can "unsafely" relinquish with the spell ending before it can start to degrade. Perhaps throw in a service contract where you update the spell on a weekly basis for a month or two.
                        Remind them of the potential consequences of not opting into the warranty.


                        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
                        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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                        • #13
                          You can employ basic pressure too, "Look, my ability to control spells to buff you is limited, and that guy over there is willing to do a lot more for me if I boost him. So make me a better offer or I'm taking my services elsewhere."

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                          • #14
                            Thats all great help, thanks. but back to subject, I don't think relinquishing is overpowered.

                            edit: seriouslu though thanks for the help I dun deserve such help! ^^;

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                            • #15
                              Interestingly in my (anecdotal) experience of playing/running in 5 or 6 games now, I found few players are willing to risk 1XP even on potent effects when theirs a strong risk of them being dispelled or lost during play. I have had much more fun Unsafely relinquishing spells (using WP points not dots), particularly when playing a Prime Mage. A chance die of Dox a day is a small price to pay for that 8-again Yantra or maxed out Shielding spell and its pretty simple for a Prime Disciple to scrub the spells when they start to 'go sour' and recast them.

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