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Isn't relinquishing a bit overpowered?

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  • #16
    For me the issue is long-term of wanting spirits to know my character for keeping her word.

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    • #17
      What kinds of spells are you actually needing to relinquish for them?
      Most of what Spirits want could be achieved in a lasting manner through more mundane means, perhaps assisted by Magic.

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      • #18
        Sure, but nothing says "Having me as a friend is useful" like a long-term/indefinite Essence Fountain giving out free food Essence every so often.


        Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
        Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post
          This means 10 spells would cost 10xp. Its insanely expensive!
          Not really. It's about perspective.

          A Gnosis 3 Mage can relinquish a combined, indefinite spell for 1 xp, gaining the effects of two spells of their choosing for the same price as a 1-dot merit. Even singlular 1-dot spells are generally more potent effects than one-dot merits, but relinquishing is hardly limited to one-dot spells, and this is combining two effects (more at higher Gnosis).

          Relinquished Spells are some of the most cost-effective power increases available in the game, but they come with massive drawbacks in that the investment isn't protected, and there are ways for your enemies to attack that investment in published material.

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          • #20
            The biggest problem with Relinquished spells, beyond the system constraints, is that as a non - refundable resource, there has to be a judgement call by the ST as to how much pressure and risk is to be placed on their possible disruption /dispellation.

            Much like issues with retainers before Sanctity of Merits, the investment has an inherent risk which can be difficult for an ST to manage without either overlooking its flaws, or pushing them too hard.

            And unlike a retainer, you can't "heal" a dissonanced/dispelled spell. Well, not normally.
            Last edited by HerbertIsBestBert; 11-25-2018, 06:59 PM. Reason: Clarity

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            • #21
              Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
              Not really. It's about perspective.

              A Gnosis 3 Mage can relinquish a combined, indefinite spell for 1 xp, gaining the effects of two spells of their choosing for the same price as a 1-dot merit. Even singlular 1-dot spells are generally more potent effects than one-dot merits, but relinquishing is hardly limited to one-dot spells, and this is combining two effects (more at higher Gnosis).

              Relinquished Spells are some of the most cost-effective power increases available in the game, but they come with massive drawbacks in that the investment isn't protected, and there are ways for your enemies to attack that investment in published material.
              I'd agree but it has become expensive for me thats for sure but I don't have any STs who run for me anymore so my idea might be scewed. My previous ST was actually pretty terrible and kept pressuring me into doing relinqished spells and then dispelling them. I only quit after they had a goddamn werewolf dispel one of my spells as a counter spell after using up all my resources already.

              But I think relinquished spells are still great but..
              nooot overpoweredly so. I still stand by theyre super expensive, but not prohibitively so. I find them to be an excellent form of mage currency, a kind of money, and the real reason imbued items would be soooo expensive.

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              • #22
                1xp is the same price, to put it into perspective, that vampires pay for the embrace.

                And when playing vampire a few weeks ago, I still embraced someone in order to test an artifact we'd found that was supposed to kill Kindred, because it was cool. So what if I'm now permanently 5 whole beats "behind" the other players?

                You wouldn't churn out Imbued Item after Imbued Item without some other way of relinquishing or serious recompense, which is why dedicated crafters in the Orders are lauded, looked after, and well-paid.


                Dave Brookshaw

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                • #23
                  It costs a Humanity dot instead of WP dot as in first edition, and Humanity dots costs 2 XP. On top of that lost Humanity dots have more dire consequences than just a lower WP pool.
                  Unless you have maxed Coil of the Voivode in which case the Embrace is just a breaking point at Humanity 3 and gets an extra +1 bonus to the detachment roll.


                  Bloodline: The Stygians
                  Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                  Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
                    It costs a Humanity dot instead of WP dot as in first edition, and Humanity dots costs 2 XP. On top of that lost Humanity dots have more dire consequences than just a lower WP pool.
                    Unless you have maxed Coil of the Voivode in which case the Embrace is just a breaking point at Humanity 3 and gets an extra +1 bonus to the detachment roll.
                    Yeah, but first edition xp costs were quite different, so that's really neither here nor there.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Falcon777 View Post
                      Yeah, but first edition xp costs were quite different, so that's really neither here nor there.
                      I'm pointing out that the trait cost for an Embrace has changed in case that's why Dave thought the converted XP cost was only one XP instead of two. It seems more likely than mistaking Humanity dots to cost one XP when no Integrity equivalent has that cost in second edition.


                      Bloodline: The Stygians
                      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                      • #26
                        That's completely missing the point of Dave's post though to nitpick some technicality.

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                        • #27
                          I think I'd just refund the XP cost like the Sanctity of Merits rule. It feels like a very meta-gamble that I don't really have time for.


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                          • #28
                            The problem is if you remove the "meta gamble" you need to replace it with something to make the cost sting enough people don't just relinquish everything and recast whenever a spell is destroyed.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                              That's completely missing the point of Dave's post though to nitpick some technicality.
                              Hey, I just got an extra XP out of it.

                              So the thing about playing games you wrote on, that you don't Develop, is that sometimes rules change between the writers' email list and the book. I could have sworn it was a Willpower dot, but no - just looked it up.

                              And in my defense, I'm not the only OPP freelancer in this gaming group.


                              Ahem.

                              Aaaaaanyways. Yes - relinquishing is meant to cost xp. Only we can't make it cost xp, so we make it cost Willpower dots instead, which means it costs XP.




                              Dave Brookshaw

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
                                The problem is if you remove the "meta gamble" you need to replace it with something to make the cost sting enough people don't just relinquish everything and recast whenever a spell is destroyed.
                                Use the Sanctity of Merits rule. They get the XP back at the end of the chapter.


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