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Isn't relinquishing a bit overpowered?

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  • Undead rabbit
    started a topic Isn't relinquishing a bit overpowered?

    Isn't relinquishing a bit overpowered?

    I mean, as far as I can see there is no limit on the number of spells a mage can relinquish by using a permanent dot of willpower.

    Since getting that dot back will only cost you 1xp relinquishing looks really in-expensive ( permanent spell on you for 1xp? Sold!).
    I can immagine that veteran mage could have dozens of perma-effect in place.

    Isn't that a bit overpowered? There isn't anything to balance this feature?

    Even more, in Mage the Ascension there was the pattern-bleeding mechanic and permadox, which stopped you from altering your pattern with magic for too much time or from stacking too many perma-effect, As much as I read Awakening 2nd edition I can't find anything similar.
    Am I missing something?
    Last edited by Undead rabbit; 11-03-2018, 03:23 PM.

  • Scarlet Witch
    replied
    eeeuullck yuck you're right. Sorry about that..

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post
    Umm... what? Whats that got to do with sanctity of merits? It doesn't matter how the merit goes defunct (eldritch horror) you still have sanctity and can get a new merit!
    Sorry. By mentioning SoM in the middle of the sentence after the 'and', it looks like the first half of the sentence is referring to something else.

    So, I thought you were saying that there's a general rule of STs not messing with merits, and then SoM is a different rule for relations with other players.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scarlet Witch
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael View Post

    I don't think they are. The actual example in the core book is a retainer being killed by an 'eldritch horror', so presumably the ST not another player.
    Umm... what? Whats that got to do with sanctity of merits? It doesn't matter how the merit goes defunct (eldritch horror) you still have sanctity and can get a new merit!

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post
    what they are saying is an ST is honor-bound to protect your merits, and sanctity or merits protects your merits from the other players, well-meaning or no.
    I don't think they are. The actual example in the core book is a retainer being killed by an 'eldritch horror', so presumably the ST not another player.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scarlet Witch
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael View Post

    Depends on the merit, but yeah, that sounds pretty cool to me.



    That's is an interesting point to bear in mind.



    I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.
    what they are saying is an ST is honor-bound to protect your merits, and sanctity or merits protects your merits from the other players, well-meaning or no.

    But relinquished spells are not protected. My previous ST would actually "grief" my relinquished spells or otherwise make them useless. I can see players trolling at least a little, and Seers even from a great ST are a huge threat. Politics may require someone to attend meetings or go somewhere where having any active spells looks bad so you might lose spells on yourself that way too. Maybe someone can suppress the magic but maybe you'll have to get rid of it period.

    My consilium I run does not permit buffs during debates for example, not unless it is needed to put everyone on the same Intelligence or Manipulation. It gets complicated fast.

    No protection can become cheap or super expensive purely by your setting! My experiences have all been very expensive! Sanctity of merits protects your xp but nothing protects your spells. As powerful as they are, they have to be judged on value by what the spell brings to the story like Dave said. Comparing to merits is sort of unfair because a killed retainer can become a weak artifact or a decent shadow name or some useful resources.

    But a broken spell's value is priced by the ST and other players, lasting only as long as others permit. So, crafting items people don't blink eyes at are great but walking around self-buffed makes you a target. And at high gnosis do you even need to relinquish that?

    Meanwhile I might need to cast a spell that wards a spirit to be trapped inside it for an indefinite time and I know I can't come back to this placw regularly so I have to relinquish the spell. A lot of my relinquished spells are expensive cuz I often get into situations where I need long lasting spells that effect things I wont be revisiting soon but my morals and wisdom need my attention.

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  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by HerbertIsBestBert View Post
    The primary difference is that relinquished spells are substantially more efficient than merits.
    Would you buy a 1-dot merit that increased both your Dexterity and Stamina by 4? I would, in a heartbeat.
    Depends on the merit, but yeah, that sounds pretty cool to me.

    Also when you're guaranteed a refund, you can skimp on the duration for increased Potency and other factors.
    That's is an interesting point to bear in mind.

    The fact that you can say that about Merits doesn't really demonstrate that treating the XP lost if a relinquished spell is dispelled like XP refunds from the SoM rules is actually equivalent.
    I'm sorry, I don't understand what you're saying.

    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    The fact that you can say that about Merits doesn't really demonstrate that treating the XP lost if a relinquished spell is dispelled like XP refunds from the SoM rules is actually equivalent.

    Leave a comment:


  • HerbertIsBestBert
    replied
    The primary difference is that relinquished spells are substantially more efficient than merits.
    Would you buy a 1-dot merit that increased both your Dexterity and Stamina by 4? I would, in a heartbeat.
    Also when you're guaranteed a refund, you can skimp on the duration for increased Potency and other factors.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by lnodiv View Post
    Given that a 'chapter' defaults to a 'session' iirc, I'm not sure this actually adds any mechanical sting at all, since many groups don't allow expenditures in-play anyway.
    Same can be said for merits, but that's the standard. Personally, I generally wait for a significant break of some kind.

    Leave a comment:


  • Scarlet Witch
    replied
    Im glad Dave confirmed that relinquishing is why crafters are so well paid. Thats something Ivr done i my games and is the calling card of Mysterium leveraging in my games!

    I think relinquishing is expensive for my thyrsus but for say a mastigos I cant see it as anything less than fair. or at least dramatic

    Leave a comment:


  • lnodiv
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael View Post

    Use the Sanctity of Merits rule. They get the XP back at the end of the chapter.
    Given that a 'chapter' defaults to a 'session' iirc, I'm not sure this actually adds any mechanical sting at all, since many groups don't allow expenditures in-play anyway.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by Heavy Arms View Post
    The problem is if you remove the "meta gamble" you need to replace it with something to make the cost sting enough people don't just relinquish everything and recast whenever a spell is destroyed.
    Use the Sanctity of Merits rule. They get the XP back at the end of the chapter.

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  • Dave Brookshaw
    replied
    Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
    That's completely missing the point of Dave's post though to nitpick some technicality.
    Hey, I just got an extra XP out of it.

    So the thing about playing games you wrote on, that you don't Develop, is that sometimes rules change between the writers' email list and the book. I could have sworn it was a Willpower dot, but no - just looked it up.

    And in my defense, I'm not the only OPP freelancer in this gaming group.


    Ahem.

    Aaaaaanyways. Yes - relinquishing is meant to cost xp. Only we can't make it cost xp, so we make it cost Willpower dots instead, which means it costs XP.


    Leave a comment:


  • Heavy Arms
    replied
    The problem is if you remove the "meta gamble" you need to replace it with something to make the cost sting enough people don't just relinquish everything and recast whenever a spell is destroyed.

    Leave a comment:

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