Making a new dog with pieces of two old dogs

[Newes]

I thought this would be a little too complicated for the ask a simple question topic.
A hypothetical mage has access to death, life, and matter arcana. He has at hand the ghost of a dog, and the corpse of another dog that was killed in a car accident. He acquired the corpse shortly after the accident and using death magic has kept it preserved. Is there any combination of death, life and maybe matter that can put the ghost in the corpse and maybe make a new living dog?

[Mrmdubois]

Death 5 alone would allow you to resurrect the dog and cause the ghost to possess it.

[Newes]

[QUOTE=Mrmdubois;n1273108]Death 5 alone would allow you to resurrect the dog and cause the ghost to possess it.[/Q
Wouldn't that just result in an otherwise unmotivated living dog being possessed by a ghost? Since animals don't have an issue with souls, I was looking for a way to combine the ghost and corpse into unified living dog.

[Neos01]

You could give the ghost the claim manifestation and make it claim a living dog

[Mrmdubois]

I don’t know what you mean by unmotivated living dog, but the dog would be alive and the ghost would get to use it’s body which is as close as ghosts get to being alive most of the time. You could probably cast a Death + Life Patterning Spell to put the ghost in a living body, but in that case you don’t really need the dog corpse. You could still integrate it though if that’s the flavor you’re going for.

[Newes]

I don’t know what you mean by unmotivated living dog, but the dog would be alive and the ghost would get to use it’s body which is as close as ghosts get to being alive most of the time. You could probably cast a Death + Life Patterning Spell to put the ghost in a living body, but in that case you don’t really need the dog corpse. You could still integrate it though if that’s the flavor you’re going for.

By unmotivated living dog, I just meant a dog that was resurrected and didn't have much personality - I know dogs don't have souls as such in COD games, but since resurrected human bodies come back without souls, I assumed dogs came back with little of their original learned traits. Based on RAW, I assume that if you completely resurrect a human body with Death 5, and then attach a soul, the person is completely back (it does not spell that out, but it is the impression I got). Dogs don't have souls, so I thought maybe you could do the same thing by adding a dog ghost.

Part of the motivation of the mage is that he has worked with the ghost dog for some time and likes him. I know when a spirit or ghost claims a living or dead host, it is not seamless case of body/spirit living in harmony. I wanted to know what was involved in getting the ghost into a dog body in such a way that he is then permanently alive, not a possessing / claiming entity.

[Scarlet Witch]

You know Voltaire and Rick Sanchez and what a weird juxtoposition THAT IS, and similar, all talk about how intelligence leads to suffering and alienation to the meaninglessness of life, all life, not just our modern world?

Ever hear people question if true superintelligent AIs would kill themselves because the burden of intelligence is too philosophically great?

Lets assume in the Chronicles of Darkness having a soul prevents this. The more intelligent you are, the more you need some spiritual substance to tolerate it, like a soul.

Dogs don't need souls. I don't think they have souls the way humans do.
(although I would in my game cuz thats depresssing)

I say your dog can be motivated without a soul but if you use mind to give it human intelligence you'll either see soulloss or it will become a Horror and go mad.

As for making the dog with arcana less than 5, Im guessing weaving everything but patterning 4 death?

[ElvesofZion]

I know dogs don't have souls as such in COD games, but since resurrected human bodies come back without souls, I assumed dogs came back with little of their original learned traits.

I don't think there is any reason to make this assumption. Human's come back with no Soul, which does not affect their memories or learned behaviours but will slowly degrade them over time. Dogs never had Souls so would come back exaclty as they left. Although, if there is a dog Spirit that leaves or dies when the dog does that could affect their overall liveliness but not learned behaviour.

[ArchonAres]

Dunk the ghost of the dog into the underworld river of choice so it becomes a barghest, and then teach it how to use it's new Bargain numina, and your golden.

[Five Eyes]

A hypothetical mage has access to death, life, and matter arcana. He has at hand the ghost of a dog, and the corpse of another dog that was killed in a car accident. He acquired the corpse shortly after the accident and using death magic has kept it preserved.

This is about two more dead dogs than is Wise to be storing in your fridge, I think.

[Satchel]

Wouldn't that just result in an otherwise unmotivated living dog being possessed by a ghost? Since animals don't have an issue with souls, I was looking for a way to combine the ghost and corpse into unified living dog.

There's not a lot of distinction between "ghost-dog possessing a living dog-body" and "resurrected dog with the mind of a different dog" outside of the niche application of Mind to copy the ghost-dog's memories into the live dog-body's brain. Death-savvy characters might be able to spot that this living dog is possessed by the ghost of another dog, but short of destroying one of the two components of this fusion to fuel a spell to make a more concrete combination there's not a lot of ways to accomplish this goal that don't fall short of the specific goal of taking two different dead dogs of different compositions and making them into a third living dog.

You could give the ghost the claim manifestation and make it claim a living dog

I'm reasonably certain Claim is conspicuously absent from Mage's copy of the ephemeral being rules for a reason, not least because "possess this thing indefinitely" is accounted for by "Manifestation Conditions instilled by magic last as long as the spell does instead of their normal timespan."

Dunk the ghost of the dog into the underworld river of choice so it becomes a barghest, and then teach it how to use it's new Bargain numina, and your golden.

The ghost of a dog is already a barghest, barghests regularly jump right into the River to self-annihilate rather than take the still-ruinous but more measured necessary step of drinking from the waters to become a geist, and not every geist has the Bargain Manifestation, which (besides very probably being out-of-bounds for Awakened magic to grant as a tool for directly creating members of another template) is a means for a ghost to bond with a human.

[Neos01]

There's not a lot of distinction between "ghost-dog possessing a living dog-body" and "resurrected dog with the mind of a different dog" outside of the niche application of Mind to copy the ghost-dog's memories into the live dog-body's brain. Death-savvy characters might be able to spot that this living dog is possessed by the ghost of another dog, but short of destroying one of the two components of this fusion to fuel a spell to make a more concrete combination there's not a lot of ways to accomplish this goal that don't fall short of the specific goal of taking two different dead dogs of different compositions and making them into a third living dog.

I'm reasonably certain Claim is conspicuously absent from Mage's copy of the ephemeral being rules for a reason, not least because "possess this thing indefinitely" is accounted for by "Manifestation Conditions instilled by magic last as long as the spell does instead of their normal timespan."

The ghost of a dog is already a barghest, barghests regularly jump right into the River to self-annihilate rather than take the still-ruinous but more measured necessary step of drinking from the waters to become a geist, and not every geist has the Bargain Manifestation, which (besides very probably being out-of-bounds for Awakened magic to grant as a tool for directly creating members of another template) is a means for a ghost to bond with a human.

I think that the reason of absence of the claim manifestation is word counting (to make room for the Familiar manifestation).
It s true that the claim would last only until the spell expires, but a master could arrange a indefinite spell.
(Wich could be still dispelled, but the claimed entity would have better attributes than the normal dog, a good but not ideal solution)

[Neos01]

By unmotivated living dog, I just meant a dog that was resurrected and didn't have much personality - I know dogs don't have souls as such in COD games, but since resurrected human bodies come back without souls, I assumed dogs came back with little of their original learned traits. Based on RAW, I assume that if you completely resurrect a human body with Death 5, and then attach a soul, the person is completely back (it does not spell that out, but it is the impression I got). Dogs don't have souls, so I thought maybe you could do the same thing by adding a dog ghost.

Part of the motivation of the mage is that he has worked with the ghost dog for some time and likes him. I know when a spirit or ghost claims a living or dead host, it is not seamless case of body/spirit living in harmony. I wanted to know what was involved in getting the ghost into a dog body in such a way that he is then permanently alive, not a possessing / claiming entity.

I suggested the claiming instead of possession because the mind of the barghest and the dog would merge, resulting in a "near" normal dog

[Newes]

I suggested the claiming instead of possession because the mind of the barghest and the dog would merge, resulting in a "near" normal dog

I thought claiming invariably resulted in increasingly unnatural changes to the fused being. Maybe I am confused.

[Tessie]

As described Claimed suppresses the consciousness of the host and have the entity being in charge, not merging both consciousnesses. And yes, it generally adds unnatural physical changes to the host, but mostly because spirits (who are much more likely to use Claim) are quite unnatural. A ghost would make the host seem more like the ghost which means that the resurrected dog would look more like the ghost dog. It might also generate Dread Powers based on the Numina of the ghost dog.