On Active Mage Sight

[shkspr1048]

Just to be clear, the example given in the Active Mage Sight text on p. 92? The one where a light-manipulating effect beats Mind Sight but is pierced by Life Sight? The general consensus is that it was a typo, correct?

[Mrmdubois]

Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Mind Sight would also bypass the light manipulating effect to sense a Mind, but you wouldn't be able to see jack shit other than that. Same goes for Life Sight, "Oh hey, there's Life over there." Doesn't let you see the person that's Veiled. Though once those Sights confirm there's something there to see you could cast spells to get more info. Forces Sight on the other hand would allow a CoW which could potentially pierce the Veil completely.

[Satchel]

Yeah, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Mind Sight would also bypass the light manipulating effect to sense a Mind, but you wouldn't be able to see jack shit other than that. Same goes for Life Sight, "Oh hey, there's Life over there." Doesn't let you see the person that's Veiled. Though once those Sights confirm there's something there to see you could cast spells to get more info. Forces Sight on the other hand would allow a CoW which could potentially pierce the Veil completely.

My general contention is that Active Mage Sight specifically works through the lens of your existing perceptions.

Mind Sight can tell you that something you're looking at has a mind and the state it occupies and the other information made available by that Arcanum, but just like Mind Sight won't let you see goetia in Twilight without the relevant Attainment it can't help you register the presence of something hiding from you through methods that don't interact with purely mental defenses; it's thermal vision, not radar.

Meanwhile, it makes perfect sense for the Mage Sight used for living things — i.e. the things for which camouflage has the longest history of applied use — to be able to look at the mage wearing an optical cloak and say "there's a living thing in front of that patch of wall."

[Tessie]

It's not camouflage, though. It's literal invisibility, which is just as much outside the purview of Life as it is Mind.

[Satchel]

It's not camouflage, though. It's literal invisibility, which is just as much outside the purview of Life as it is Mind.

"Light-based invisibility" is what the vast majority of camouflage is. A mage with Forces-based Invisibility up isn't compelling you to ignore her or displacing her image into a warp in space, she's literally making the light reaching your eyes from her position look like it would look if it was reflecting to them through her from whatever happened to be behind her. That's a difference of degree from an octopus looking like part of the seafloor, not an entirely separate type of distortion.

[Tessie]

No, it is vastly different. Biological camouflage is reflecting light in patterns similar to your environment to make you stand out less, hopefully making you practically invisible for threats. Forces Invisibility is not reflecting light to make you literally invisible. No biological camouflage works like that even if it tries to achieve a similar outcome.

Edit: You can't just reduce it down to "light-based" and have Life see through all types of light-based invisibility regardless of whether it's actually something that can be replicated through biological means or not. If you want to see through all light-based invisibility, use Forces Sight and win the Clash.

[Mrmdubois]

Yeah, that argument isn't very convincing to me Satchel

[Satchel]

Yeah, that argument isn't very convincing to me Satchel

If you have a more compelling explanation for how "this lens that highlights sensory phenomena corresponding to living creatures can pierce a form of stealth that has had its limitation to the purely visual underlined since First Edition but the lens that lets you identify an eidolon or a p-zombie or a Turing-compliant AI cannot do the same," I'm all ears, but considering that the OP brought up this subject back in errata collection and it wasn't changed, I have to give credence to the idea that it may not be an error.

[2ptTakrill]

"Literal Invisibility" just hides you from energy (such as light) based 'sight', it doesn't effect smell, hearing or any other type of sense.
What makes invisibility so powerful is humans being primarily 'sight' focused, most times we see something first and without a clue that something is there we don't usually try alternative senses.
This would make Forces based invisibility less effective against Werewolves than against Sleepers.

[Tessie]

but considering that the OP brought up this subject back in errata collection and it wasn't changed, I have to give credence to the idea that it may not be an error.

The errata pass almost exclusively deals with typos and many things, especially mechanics, still slip through even though they're brought up in the errata thread before it closes. It's worth keeping in mind that it might not be an error, but it's far from a guarantee that it isn't.

"Literal Invisibility" just hides you from energy (such as light) based 'sight', it doesn't effect smell, hearing or any other type of sense.
What makes invisibility so powerful is humans being primarily 'sight' focused, most times we see something first and without a clue that something is there we don't usually try alternative senses.
This would make Forces based invisibility less effective against Werewolves than against Sleepers.

Sure, but not really relevant to the discussion. Life Sight doesn't let you gain more information through your sense of smell than any other AMS, if that's what you're going for. Though you would potentially be able to perceive something through hearing or smells and thus bypass invisibility, it would apply equally to all types of Mage Sight.

[2ptTakrill]

My intended point was that Forces based Invisibility only protects against light based sight, it should do nothing to hide its subject from other forms of detection including the other Mage Sights. Mind should still be able to pinpoint and identify the mind and Life should still detect even an invisible life form.
This Forces spell only hides the subject from sight, or whatever other energy form it is tailored to, its only protection from Active Mage Sights that aren't Forces based is your unlikely to bother looking for what you don't know is there.
Forces sight would provoke a Clash of Will.

[Scarlet Witch]

I can see it. I disagreed at first but seeing people bounce this around, I can see why this makes sense. It isnt intuitive though so thats a problem.

So invisibility will hide you from mind sight because to see a mind you have to SEE it. Invisibility hides this so if you can't see somethint is there you can't see it has a mind. Mage sight does not add new senses, it overlays and augments whats there. It is analogous to a minor virtual reality overlay that gives you basic information.

Cool, but, why does Life Sight pierce it? Well, you don't see a living thing there, but, if it is JUST invisible, then life is still happening there, you just can't see the life form. Mage Sight blends and augments senses, it does not add new senses, but blending them into a synethesia is on the table! So you can see smells, and perhaps even hallucinate expanded images of dander coming off your subject. It can pierce it but not fully, a life mage still might miss this! But they can do it for those reasons.

You cant see a mind "happening" cuz in Mage minds can exist separately of brains (goetia), but, you can see life happening without seeing it directly, like hunting for certain compounds in a exoplanet atmosphere or looking for hair and dander. Life sight works like that!

So I propose that Mind Sight loses to Invisibility but other mind spells will fair well! Life Sight will see invisible creatures but only their lifesigns and not the creature itself so... perception checks!

Force Sight could get both a CoW aaand a perception check, but if the CoW fails they cant see the invisible creature, only know that "Oh, forces is happening over there! But what kind?"

[Tessie]

My intended point was that Forces based Invisibility only protects against light based sight, it should do nothing to hide its subject from other forms of detection including the other Mage Sights. Mind should still be able to pinpoint and identify the mind and Life should still detect even an invisible life form.
This Forces spell only hides the subject from sight, or whatever other energy form it is tailored to, its only protection from Active Mage Sights that aren't Forces based is your unlikely to bother looking for what you don't know is there.
Forces sight would provoke a Clash of Will.

That's the opposite of how Active Mage Sight vs veiling magic works. If Invisibility forces a Clash, then Forces would be the only Sight capable of Clashing and all others would not see anything.
No other Sight has any reason bypass the invisbility because AMS works off your senses. If you can't perceive it with your regular senses you won't be able to see it with Active Mage Sight unless you use an Arcanum that interacts with the veiling method. Forces does that because the invisibility comes from bending light (as well as Invisibility being a Forces spell).

[Taldorblackfire]

Concealment magic, of whatever type, can hide a target from Active Mage Sight, but only if the concealment would logically mask the target from the purview of the Arcanum in question.

This phrase from the book on page 92 seems to indicate that any Sight that "could" spot the target aside from the Arcanum related to the concealment effect simply succeeds. The next statement:

Even then, if the concealment power uses the same magical principles as the detecting Arcanum, the mage still has a chance to see through it.

Seems to suggest that the CoW comes from an Arcanum and the conealment power working on the same type of veiling effect (Invisibility vs. Forces). Essentially from those 2 statements using Life Sight to see someone using light-based Invisibility is automatically a success while Forces would just invoke a Clash of Will.

For example, a light-based invisibility spell would conceal a target from Mind Sight, but Life Sight could still detect the living being, with or without the assistance of photons.

The errata here should have been Space Sight or if it mentioned Forces it should have stated with a CoW at least from my understanding. Life Sight is not dependent on photons and thus you would still discover there is something living there (unless they were a Vampire!). Then you have the next statement:

Likewise, some vampires employ a kind of mental “invisibility” that causes observers to ignore them. This power would conceal a target from Forces Sight (it isn’t light-based) or Time Sight, but not Mind Sight (since both the concealment power and the Arcanum are working on the same principles).

So Forces doesn't really work here since the vampire's concealment power is directing you away from looking at the vampire not bending light and Time Sight doesn't show anything because it requires "watching" to work. However, I imagine Death Sight would instantly pick up the vampire while Mind would get a CoW because it is mind-based concealment.

So, essentially this is my understanding of how each Sight would react to a Mage/Living person being light-based Invisible using the Forces 2 Spell:
Fate Sight - Would pick you up if you have the Destiny merit.
Forces Sight - CoW
Life Sight - You would see that there is someone alive and the presence of toxins, diseases, and Personal Tilts.
Mind Sight - Would show you there is a thinking being before you.
Prime Sight - Would pick up that a spell is cast in that area.
Time Sight - Would detect something is there if Time shenanigans are happening

So, basically if you are light-based invisible hope someone watching you does not have Forces, Life, Mind, or Prime Sight. The others Sights would be unable to see you.

Incognito would have the following sight results:
Fate Sight - Would pick you up if you have the Destiny merit.
Life Sight - You would see that there is someone alive and the presence of toxins, diseases, and Personal Tilts.
Mind Sight - CoW
Prime Sight - Would pick up that a spell is cast in that area.
Time Sight - Would detect something is there if Time shenanigans are happening

So, basically Life, Mind, or Prime are the Sights to have to detect you. Poor Acanthus are definitely lacking on the ability to perceive a Mage with their Sight unless you have a Destiny.

Basically, the way to really be shrouded from the most Sights would be to have Incognito and Supernal Veil on you and all your spells.
Fate Sight - CoW if you have the Destiny merit.
Life Sight - CoW to reveal something living is there.
Mind Sight - CoW to detect a thinking being is there.
Prime Sight - CoW to detect that active spells are there.

The sneakiest is a Vampire using their Mind-ignore power, then you only have 1 Sight that could pierce it:
Mind Sight - CoW to detect a thinking being is there.

Sorry if this is a long post, but I thought this might help unravel some of the questions about AMS.

[2ptTakrill]

When you use Active Mage Sight what you are looking at are the Supernal Symbols that underline reality, so when someone uses Life to look at an invisible person what they see (if they 'see' at all, some might sense the Supernal as smells, tactile sensations or perhaps their secret weapon is PMS; Buffy) are the Supernal Symbols, not the actual person. It would be like seeing a person wearing a head to toe green suit like movies use for CGI. The Mage in question would see the symbols for a human, male or female, but he wouldn't see how old they are or be able to recognize that it's Bob from accounting.