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  • #31
    Think of it like this, if someone is invisible and paint gets dumped on them. Is Forces still clashing? If you assume that it works the way I am saying it does because it doesn’t matter know that you can see them. They are still messing with the light it is just now you see where they are.


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    • #32
      Originally posted by Taldorblackfire View Post
      I considered this, but how you can detect a soul with your senses? I guess if you are blind you have to touch someone?
      You perceive the person (with whatever senses you have) and then get to know whether they have a soul or not. Same with Mind. You perceive a person and then get to know if the person has a mind (and stuff about that mind). You don't see soul or mind directly, but that's not what Mage Sight says it does; it shows the presence of one in a vessel.

      That method seems to have lots of problems as well.
      What problems? That someone with an impairment suffers from that impairment? There are both spells and other ways to restore, enhance and grant senses that would work very well with Mage Sight.

      I imagine the way it works is you get Supernal Info through your senses that you use. If you are Blind you don’t see the Mandalas but instead receive a smell or a feeling or just a mental map of what is before you. This can be relayed to you without having to touch something or know something is there in my opinion. The info you receive though can be shrouded, which is what Veiling spells do. So that is why I think it works like I mentioned.
      If that's your preferred hack of Mage Sight, go right ahead and use it, but contradicting even more of the book doesn't fix the book's contradiction or help determine/guess the intended way Mage Sight is supposed to work.
      Last edited by Tessie; 01-04-2019, 03:43 PM.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
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      • #33
        So how does someone tell you have a soul in your method? You say it shows they have one but how you determine that info?


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        • #34
          Originally posted by Taldorblackfire View Post
          So how does someone tell you have a soul in your method? You say it shows they have one but how you determine that info?
          Originally posted by Tessie View Post
          You perceive the person (with whatever senses you have) and then get to know whether they have a soul or not. Same with Mind. You perceive a person and then get to know if the person has a mind (and stuff about that mind). You don't see soul or mind directly, but that's not what Mage Sight says it does; it shows the presence of one in a vessel.


          Bloodline: The Stygians
          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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          • #35
            Would you say that was Supernal Info fed to them?


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            • #36
              I would say that when you perceive them you also perceive the Supernal symbols relating to them. A person, including mind, body and soul, is a singular entity when it comes to the Supernal. That's why you can cast spells on a person's mind or soul by seeing or touching their body (as long as the mind or soul is within that body) because they're a singular subject.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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              • #37
                So in other words it is Supernal Info given to you thanks to your Mage Sight. Would you need to touch someone to get that info if you are blind? How would you know if there was electricity if you were blind? Would someone blind have to touch the electric cables to determine there is power running through the walls?


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                • #38
                  How do you sense Temporal Disturbances if Blind, touch the air? Sorry if I sound snarky/argumentative, just curious on how it would be handled in your understanding.
                  It seems it is possible that blind mages can also see the overlay of symbols despite not having any sight at all as stated by Dave in a FAQ message. So this seems to indicate that Mage Sight can break through your mundane senses after all.
                  Last edited by Taldorblackfire; 01-04-2019, 05:14 PM. Reason: New info discovered.


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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Taldorblackfire View Post
                    So in other words it is Supernal Info given to you thanks to your Mage Sight. Would you need to touch someone to get that info if you are blind? How would you know if there was electricity if you were blind? Would someone blind have to touch the electric cables to determine there is power running through the walls?
                    1.) And what I see is visual info given to me thanks to my eyes. Not only light based information such as colours, in fact. My brain is wired to automatically draw conclusions from what I see which is why I can discern movements from changes in the visual information as well as distinguish textures from mere patterns. I also have pattern recognition that can distinguish objects from other objects and even recognise them based on their shapes and movements. All of this info given to me through sight and my brain's most basic interpretation of my sight.
                    Mage Sight merely enhances the information you gain through your senses to include Supernal symbols relating to what you see. You see a person, you get the symbols relating to that person. You interpret them. You see that the person has a soul because that's part of the symbols of that person. You don't literally see their soul because you don't have to. Think of it like seeing someone's muscles dance under their skin when they flex or bend their limbs. You see the muscles even though you literally do not see them because they're not exposed. That's what it's like seeing their soul with Death Sight.
                    If you want to divorce Mage Sight from the senses, that would be a rules hack/house rule. More power to you if that's how you want to run it, but explicitly stated in the book not to be the case.

                    2.) Touch or otherwise perceive them, yes.
                    If you perceive the object that carries electricity you'd know; for devices rather than cables you'd be able to get the information from hearing the mechanical parts like fans and stuff.
                    Neither blind nor seeing mage would know without casting a Knowing/Unveiling spell to know where the cables in the wall go anyway.

                    3.) What's with your almost aggressive attitude against a sensory impairment still being an impairment? I'm pretty sure a blind mage would compensate through spells anyway. Mage Sight is supposed to be only one of many tools in any given mage's repertoire with deeper information gathering being the focus of Knowing and Unveiling. Active Mage Sight specifically is only supposed to grant relatively minor information. That it can Clash in the first place is already good without allowing most Arcana to almost effortlessly bypass any given veiling magic.


                    Edit:
                    Originally posted by Taldorblackfire View Post
                    How do you sense Temporal Disturbances if Blind, touch the air? Sorry if I sound snarky/argumentative, just curious on how it would be handled in your understanding.
                    Depends on the nature of the disturbance. If it's a person who's out of sync with time, any kind of perception of that person would show you that. If it's a location, any sounds emanating from it could be enough. If standing in the location it would most definitely be sensed through your touch similar to feeling a wind or the sun against your skin.
                    Last edited by Tessie; 01-04-2019, 05:16 PM.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                    • #40
                      Blind people have other senses than touch.

                      They could hear them or smell them. And then would hear or smell their Soul (the Supernal Symbol of their soul that is) too.


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                      • #41
                        Sorry. It was not meant as aggressive, but it appears Dave said they could also potentially see the Supernal World despite their impairment. So ST fiat on that I suppose. True you could compensate with magic and sighted mages can do the same. My point was Mage Sight is more than just if you can’t perceive it you don’t get anything. From the description in the book the world is overlayed with the Supernal based on the Arcana, in my mind that meant it was basically like throwing paint over the entire area and you sensed what got stuck. If you saw it great, you could discern that info with your sight.


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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by ElvesofZion View Post
                          Blind people have other senses than touch.

                          They could hear them or smell them. And then would hear or smell their Soul (the Supernal Symbol of their soul that is) too.
                          Another good point.


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                          • #43
                            I guess my main point is that just because you can’t see a target does not make it completely invisible from other sights because my understanding is the Supernal symbolism is there you just dont see the physical person.


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                            • #44
                              But the point remians that if they were on the other side of a wall (another way that breaks the light traveling from them to you) you wouldn't see them with any kind of Sight. (Unless you perceive them via a different method like the blind example)


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                              • #45
                                Yes, that is correct, or if they were veiled by something being physically in front of them like a half wall as well.


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