Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Inter Order Conflict

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Inter Order Conflict

    Even though the Pentacle orders try to present a united front, there seems to be a lot of conflict between the orders (or even within the orders). Looking into the politics of the orders in both Boston Unveiled and World of Darkness Chicago, there seems to be power struggles between mages which can get quite bloody and sometimes spill into all out war. The Guardians of the Veil sometimes butt heads with the Free Council and there are times that the Mysterium might get into conflict with other orders to jockey for position within a City. The Silver Ladder seems to be the order which will try to dominate a Consillium and will do whatever they can in order to do so.

    There also seems to be a great deal of Intra-order conflict as well. Boston Unveiled suggested that the Ebon Noose and the Illuminated Pentad are in a state of conflict in Boston. I am just citing 2 books that came out but has there been much suggestion to the extent that orders will fight each other for more power or for magical resources such as artifacts? To what extent do the Seers of the Throne use this to weaken the Pentacle?

  • #2
    As much as they can, when they're aware of it. The Orders do jockey for power, but usually it's to serve their particular interests, so they don't butt heads that often since their interests aren't usually that similar. Same goes for individual Mages though. When they do butt heads, a functioning Consilium can help to resolve the dispute, that's what they were created for.

    Comment


    • #3
      When you add into the fact that many consiliums have less than 100 mages, it is perfectly possible for any given mage to have met most of the others. This alone can make conflict more personal instead of order based.
      Granted you don't have to have your world with that level of mage population, but it's still something to think about.

      Comment


      • #4
        I would also imagine that, as Mages descend into Hubris and their obsessions get more intense, their is more possibility for them to clash due to how that Hubris plays out. I believe that one of the central tenents of Mage is "Power Corrupts" and as they get more powerful they become more mad.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by maryshelly View Post
          I am just citing 2 books that came out but has there been much suggestion to the extent that orders will fight each other for more power or for magical resources such as artifacts?
          There's also influence (just because your Order is in a minority doesn't mean you're perfectly okay not being heard), and as others have pointed out personal vendettas. One of the open development blog posts described it as such, 'Tensions can rise between Pentacle Orders, and Ministries are constant rivals for the Exarchs’ attention, but in their worldwide forms the Pentacle are allies and the Seer Ministries are all servants. The four Diamond Orders in particular have spent millennia working together. On a personal level, however, mages will quite happily knife one another in the back and hold grudges that carry on to one another’s apprentices. Basically, the Pentacle is an alliance of fact, not merely one of convenience. But it isn’t the Star Trek Federation, either.'

          There's more examples than those two books, of course. Sanctum and Sigil has the general rules and punishment procedures the Silver Ladder advocate for, and examples of breaches and how nasty things can get when someone is particularly obsessive about one mystery or another. There's also Dave Brookshaw's actual plays, which have loads of inter-order and cabal conflict and personal grudges that linger through to apprentices.

          Comment


          • #6
            There is an old saying:
            "I, against my brothers. I and my brothers against my cousins. I and my brothers and my cousins against the world."

            There are inter cabal grudges, Order infighting and conflicts with the other Orders. But there is also a sense of greater threats. The Pentacle will put grudges aside to fight Seer threats, Seers might do so for fighting the Pentacle (more or less, expect many surges of their Chronic Backstabbing Disorder). Seers and Pentacle mages are able to work against Banishers, Reapers and other supernaturals that threaten them (if they don't try to seek them on one another first).

            A well run Consilia and/or Assembly tries to prevent escalation via Duel Arcanes, diplomacy, negotiations, competitions and enforcing the Lex Magicka. When this happens in the Iron Pyramid, the observers just grab some popcorn and try to figure out how this will profit them. There is only interference when these feuds get in the way of the higher ups' plans.

            There is also the threat of mutual annihilation. For example, if they make the right preparations, a master of Mind and Time only needs 3 seconds to be able to kill everyone in a city, supernatural or not. Even the most restrained mages can do horrible things. A Mastigos has a strict no killing code, but he is livid with a cabal member, so he teleports them to the bottom of the Mariana's Trench, counts to 15 and brings them back. Now they are mangled by the pressure, have the bends and probably picked up a trauma from almost asphyxiating in a cold, painful, dark place. Sure they can be fixed with magic, but it leaves an impression. Mages normally do not want things to escalate into total war (not even Arrows, its usually too costly an approach to be worth it). Except the Praetorians, they probably thrive in such ecosystems due to their greater focus in preparing for and causing them.
            Last edited by KaiserAfini; 01-07-2019, 08:06 AM.


            New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

            Comment


            • #7
              Also, Mage society is like Academia, as Henry Kissinger said "...the fights are so vicious, because the stakes were so low..."

              Comment


              • #8
                I think it's important to note the kind of conflict that occurs. Fighting over resources is one thing, it's another to fight over ideology. A lot of the Diamond people might not like the Free Council, but there's no suggestion that anyone expects a second Nameless War, or that in turn the Diamond feel their consilia system is under any threat from the Assemblies.

                Originally posted by maryshelly View Post
                There also seems to be a great deal of Intra-order conflict as well. Boston Unveiled suggested that the Ebon Noose and the Illuminated Pentad are in a state of conflict in Boston.
                If I remember right, the Nemean is intended to be a bad Hierarch. It's not written as an example consilium, it's written as a setting to play in, and he's the central plot hook.


                Comment


                • #9
                  My understanding is that the Nemean is deliberately trying to be the worst Hierarch possible, because he is an Aswadim who has an omen of "I must be deposed from my tyrannical reign as an apex predator by a hero" (just like Heracles did to the lion he is named after). But its been difficult because he has been remarkably competent at sowing chaos in the city. In addition, he has such a strong grasp of the Spirit arcanum that he has prepared a contingency for just about everything. He has deliberately painted a target on himself to because its not the real him at risk, he wants his Hierarch ochemata to go down and then he can seal the omen.

                  So yeah, he is a very specific case, not the common praxis for the position.


                  New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                    My understanding is that the Nemean is deliberately trying to be the worst Hierarch possible, because he is an Aswadim who has an omen of "I must be deposed from my tyrannical reign as an apex predator by a hero" (just like Heracles did to the lion he is named after). But its been difficult because he has been remarkably competent at sowing chaos in the city. In addition, he has such a strong grasp of the Spirit arcanum that he has prepared a contingency for just about everything. He has deliberately painted a target on himself to because its not the real him at risk, he wants his Hierarch ochemata to go down and then he can seal the omen.

                    So yeah, he is a very specific case, not the common praxis for the position.
                    Where is that from? It's a neat idea but don't remember him talking about any omens. Plus, I remember Malcolm Sheppard describing the Nemean as not actually being exactly an archmaster, he's something else.


                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Michael View Post

                      Where is that from? It's a neat idea but don't remember him talking about any omens. Plus, I remember Malcolm Sheppard describing the Nemean as not actually being exactly an archmaster, he's something else.
                      Its just my theory for why he acts like a Camarilla Prince.


                      New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yeah, he's not an archmaster. He's the only known master to survive a threshold seeking without dying to the abyss and also not becoming an archmaster. This is known. Check the story The Unmurdered Man in the Fallen Anthology.
                        Last edited by Falcon777; 01-08-2019, 01:25 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Interesting, I have yet to read that one. Cool, will take a look.


                          New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I recall the trying to be the worst. It may have been confirmed by one of the writers or in the books. I think it's part of the Silver Ladder thing, they have the three different archetypes, the Lion, the Stag, and the Sage, but he plays the Lion particularly well so no one has really managed to 'kill' him? Though I think they ended up imprisoning him in one of the stories.

                            Anyways yes he's a good example of a 'problem' mage. Even if his actions are an attempt to goad people into taking him down, he's still terrorizing other mages.
                            Last edited by nofather; 01-07-2019, 05:41 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Something interesting to note about the Nemean's story is that even he doesn't actually kill anyone. Indeed Khumeia's coup actually hinges on him not killing her when he has the chance. Hell, even after the tables are turned, the Silver Ladder don't simply execute the Nemean, they try to 'reeducate' him.


                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X