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How High Speech really sounds?

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  • #16
    It sounds like parseltongue.


    - If you must be ridiculous, I must ridicule you.
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    • #17
      If you really want to know what it sounds like, go to Chicago, find one of those closed down drive-thru's with the clown head speaker, and just listen to that for a while. Just make sure your head isn't near it.


      Kelly R.S. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
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      • #18
        I always had an analogue in my head, between High Speech and Latin. You cant really have a normal conversation in latin, but those who study it for a while (I.E buy the merit) can string together words to get a rough sentence across and (given some very liberal inference on both parties parts) might even be able to have a very short conversation about a few limited topics.
        My interpritation of what it sounds like, would probably also be something along those lines, with kinds of dead and ancient languages woven into it. So a very multilingual person who overhears an Atlantian Mage spout High Speech, might recognise a word of Latin here and another word of Sanskrit there. Not in the sense that he could make out what the sentence ment, even if he knew every language ever, mind you. The sentence, if fully translated, would still be gibberish to him. I like to make the connection that Atlantian is kinda the primordial language from which every other language originates, and that bits and pieces of it exist in every language. So the more ancient the language, the more likely you are to find simmilarities in it.
        Sorta like how you can have a glass of cool aid, drink half of it and refill the glass with water. You do this a few times and the drink will taste increasingly less of cool aid, but it'll have that hint of cool aid to it. Unless you do a million times though. Then you just have a glass of water for all intends and purposes. But that, in and of itself, might make for a pretty cool story hook of a scenario. If language contnues to evolve, and the High Speech gets thinned out more and more (The High Speech which seems to keep the Abyss at bay, by the way), then what might happen when/if our common language becomes so distant from High Speech as to be wholly absent of every piece of it?
        Our reality will crumble, as the Cthulian Nothing-Fiends from the Stygia Pits of the Void comes to collect our souls and sanities! Or something...

        Since we're on the topic anyway, I find it a bit odd that High Speech is hyped up to be so amazing and enigmatic and powerful and what-have-you, in its flavor, and then the actual abillity mechnically speaking, are just a measly 1 dot (or was it 2 dots? Cant remember) Merit that yields a very minor benefit.
        If i ever ran Mage, I'de probably make some house rule, to either ramp down the flavor of it, or improve the merit quite a bit.

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        • #19
          I've always thought of High Speech as being some kind of underlying pattern that Mages can discern from the gibberish but that people without Supernal attunement are incapable of noticing.

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          • #20
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonsense_verse


            I call the Integrity-analogue the "subjective stat".
            An explanation how to use Social Manuevering.
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            • #21
              Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

              I wouldn't think so. Not anymore than anything else coming from the same template (like, if you construct a motorway in emulation of one that resembles a rune, it'll still reference the shape no matter what your intent).

              I'd say that certain non-human supernaturals might be less inclined to stumble out with things relevant to mages, because the Supernal does not seem quite so present in a non-human soul. I'd think that might also make them less... resonant with 'external' influences that might produce a similar effect.
              I don't think it is fair to say that the Supernal is not as present in a non-supernal soul. In fact, you can gain Arcane XP from interacting and studying other supernaturals since they reveal aspects of the supernal in their very nature. ​ I think it would be a mistake to think that specific runes have to be present. Daves examples seem to indicate that anything could hold a resonance with the supernal, and the runes are just a small portion of things which reflect supernal elements.

              That said, I think you would only see or hear High Speech in very specific circumstances. For example, when a vampire is staked and slips into torpor, you may hear the High Speech equivalents of "Sleep" and "Death" as part of the sound of the stake piercing the chest and heart. Or when you see a changelings mask slip, you may read the symbol for "Hidden" in the mein that peaks out. Or when a werewolf creates a gate through the gauntlet, the words "boundary" and "torn" may be read in the ripped epherma.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Freemind View Post

                I don't think it is fair to say that the Supernal is not as present in a non-supernal soul. In fact, you can gain Arcane XP from interacting and studying other supernaturals since they reveal aspects of the supernal in their very nature. ​ I think it would be a mistake to think that specific runes have to be present. Daves examples seem to indicate that anything could hold a resonance with the supernal, and the runes are just a small portion of things which reflect supernal elements.
                A vampire cannot feel the Supernal World from within their own soul, or hear it in their dreams. They belong to other powers.

                So the products of their inspiration or ecstasy do not have so much potential to emulate form in the Supernal.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                  A vampire cannot feel the Supernal World from within their own soul, or hear it in their dreams. They belong to other powers.

                  So the products of their inspiration or ecstasy do not have so much potential to emulate form in the Supernal.
                  There is a bit of a break in logic here. Your positing that : Vampire Souls cannot perceive the supernal as they are claimed by other powers. Therefore, they are not reflected strongly in the supernal. This would be like saying that a blind man cannot see, and therefore cannot be reflected in a mirror. Though the curse of Vampirism is not understandable or reversible by non-archmages, and the disciplines aren't supernal magic, doesn't mean they don't have supernal symbolism. They may not be able to approach the supernal due to the damage to their twisted souls from their curse, but it doesn't mean that they are not reflected in the supernal. The supernal reflects all aspects of reality that exist within the phenomenal realms.

                  So while a vampire may not have any ability to touch it, it doesn't mean its pattern isn't reflected in the Supernal. The only things outside of the Supernal reflections are things from the Abyss, and to a lesser extent the Lower Depths. So unless you are playing a game where the Vampires are Abyssal or Lower Depth touched entities, than they still should be reflected in the Supernal, since they exist in our realm.

                  By the logic here, a Ghost should lack supernal symbolism, as they can't perceive the supernal (since, you know, they are dead and incomplete souls), yet I am certain the Death Arcana has complete mastery over them. Vampires are more complicated, sure, but that should mean studying them yields even more insight, as they offer a unique aspect of the reality of death (and the WoD as a whole).

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Krobeles View Post
                    Since we're on the topic anyway, I find it a bit odd that High Speech is hyped up to be so amazing and enigmatic and powerful and what-have-you, in its flavor, and then the actual abillity mechnically speaking, are just a measly 1 dot (or was it 2 dots? Cant remember) Merit that yields a very minor benefit.
                    If i ever ran Mage, I'de probably make some house rule, to either ramp down the flavor of it, or improve the merit quite a bit.
                    I have a simple one: Each dot adds +1 to casting dice pools, to reflect a better and more nuanced understanding of the high speech and a wider understanding. So, instead of a flat +2 at 1 dot, a mage can study high speech to improve their use of it. So novices can get a measly +1, Masters a +5. Better reflects the idea that you can have better or worse understandings of the tongue without really changing too much. Based off Dave's post, throw in that as the mage moves higher up this merit, the ST may throw in supernal symbolism that only that mage notices, with 1 dot only really granting a basic understanding of runes, while 5 dots lets the mage hear high speech in bird song, bees buzzing, and wacky Japanese game show advertisements

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                    • #25
                      +2 dice to a magic roll for some fairly minor actions is hardly a minor merit. Unlike the other lines, bonuses to spell rolls are really uncommon.


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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Michael View Post
                        +2 dice to a magic roll for some fairly minor actions is hardly a minor merit. Unlike the other lines, bonuses to spell rolls are really uncommon.
                        True, but it is still a turn where all you are doing is standing there, muttering. You can't dodge or take defensive action. Plus, it adds a half hour to all extended casting, regardless of the level of Gnosis. So, for combat, this can mean that werewolf gets a free swipe at your giblets while you are muttering away, or that the ritual hasn't even started when the seers blast down the door. And trust me, as an ST, I definitely take advantage of these windows in play. I view it as a way to give make high speech high risk/high reward with proper study, while still being effective rewards for mages who bother to prepare sufficiently ahead of time.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Freemind View Post
                          There is a bit of a break in logic here. Your positing that : Vampire Souls cannot perceive the supernal as they are claimed by other powers. Therefore, they are not reflected strongly in the supernal. This would be like saying that a blind man cannot see, and therefore cannot be reflected in a mirror. Though the curse of Vampirism is not understandable or reversible by non-archmages, and the disciplines aren't supernal magic, doesn't mean they don't have supernal symbolism. They may not be able to approach the supernal due to the damage to their twisted souls from their curse, but it doesn't mean that they are not reflected in the supernal. The supernal reflects all aspects of reality that exist within the phenomenal realms.
                          Okay...

                          If a normal human or a mage goes inside of their own soul, and keeps following the path down through the Astral layers, they'll get to the path that is supposed to lead to the Supernal (but for the Abyss). That's the road they tread when they Awaken, and it's basically what their Path is; the link down through the layers of their soul and into the Supernal, and what archmasters transform into their Golden Road. It's also the path from which the imagery of Supernal forms arises in human thoughts and dreams, creating inspirations in their endeavors that reflect Supernal forms. Like, that guy in the Mysterium opening fiction whose pulp fiction writing contains magical insights, that's because the Supernal is coming up inside of him.

                          Other supernaturals don't have that; there's no path to the Supernal inside of their souls.

                          A rock formation might, through uncanny and esoteric means, assume the form of an Atlantean rune, but that doesn't mean the rocks have a Supernal awareness of their own. The same goes for non-mage supernatural beings.

                          It's something that is missing from everything that is incapable of Awakening.


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                            Okay...

                            If a normal human or a mage goes inside of their own soul, and keeps following the path down through the Astral layers, they'll get to the path that is supposed to lead to the Supernal (but for the Abyss). That's the road they tread when they Awaken, and it's basically what their Path is; the link down through the layers of their soul and into the Supernal, and what archmasters transform into their Golden Road. It's also the path from which the imagery of Supernal forms arises in human thoughts and dreams, creating inspirations in their endeavors that reflect Supernal forms...

                            Other supernaturals don't have that; there's no path to the Supernal inside of their souls.

                            ...

                            It's something that is missing from everything that is incapable of Awakening.
                            I agree that only a mage can perceive the supernal realms or the supernal truths in the phenomenal world, and only human souls that are, mostly, intact (not major gamelines) can achieve awakening. Their souls have been altered such that they will never be able to percieve the supernal, unless an archmage gets up to some hinky stuff. However,

                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                            ...Like, that guy in the Mysterium opening fiction whose pulp fiction writing contains magical insights, that's because the Supernal is coming up inside of him...

                            ...

                            A rock formation might, through uncanny and esoteric means, assume the form of an Atlantean rune, but that doesn't mean the rocks have a Supernal awareness of their own. The same goes for non-mage supernatural beings.

                            It's something that is missing from everything that is incapable of Awakening.
                            I don't agree with these two points.

                            The first smacks too much of Ascension. The supernal connection is not an avatar that is enforcing the mages paradigm. The mages soul is not imparting on anything a special meaning. Instead, the supernal is inherently apart of everything. Each book continually refers to patterns, or the basic supernal aspect . All things not of the Abyss or Lower Depths contain elements of all ten arcana of the supernal, and even the the text on the abyss seems to be wishy washy about this once an abyssal entity enters the phenomenal world. Supernal symbols are inherent reflections of the supernal in our world. They exist regardless of whether a mage is looking at it or not. That book doesn't have supernal symbolism because the mages soul makes it there. Instead, the mages soul lets them see that supernal imagery, just as opening your eyes lets you see a movie. Magic may be calling on supernal symbolism that is not present, and using your soul as a conduit, but the symbolism in reality itself is not being imparted in this manner, unless a mage intentionally in writing the book to reflect supernal imagery (either by using knowledge of supernal symbolism to construct a book that contains it, or by hiding High Speech in it). I also think you are confusing supernal awareness for containing supernal symbolism. A dog may not be able to grasp abstract concepts such as loyalty, but it doesn't mean that a dog cannot be loyal, or for that matter, symbolize loyalty. Just because it isn't aware of the abstract ideal like we are, it doesn't mean the dog cannot act in a way that describes/expresses loyalty (in fact, I would argue they are better at it then we are).

                            Another issue is that Runes are just a means to express the supernal truths as blueprints for spells, but are not the only ways to do so. Think of normal symbolism: I can show you this , you would interpret it as Sadness, an emotion (i.e. an abstract concept). However, this does not mean that is the only way to interpret someone is sad, as a tears running out of their eyes, a decreased affect or trembling lip could all act to signify sadness. However, none of these actually are sadness itself, since while we can describe it or show it, it is for all intents and purposes something that exists solely within our mind as an abstract emotion. The same exist for the supernal: Though a rune may express the supernal reality of something, it is not the only means to do so. It merely is one way to show that supernal aspect in our reality. DaveB makes a point that High Speech can be heard in any language or read from any alphabet, and the supernal symbolism meant in it is inherently understood by mages (though the complexity is limited due to mages incomplete grasp). Here is his post:
                            Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                            High Speech doesn't sound like anything, or sounds differently depending on the Mage. To Sleepers and Sleepwalkers, it sounds like gibberish, glossalia, or an unidentified language they don't know. That's because it's not actually a real language but the Supernal platonic ideal of "language" - to Mages, it sounds like gibberish, too, but their Unseen Senses respond to it and they know the information being imparted despite the sounds themselves being nonsense. Most mages can only use it to describe imagos or resonance. Some who are really good at it (and have a Merit) can get short concepts across.

                            The real trick is in the writing. Magical runes are derived from the shapes in resonance different types of spell make - they work in spellcasting like drawing a blueprint works in construction. High Speech as a communication method doesn't have to be written in them - you can use any alphabet you like to write High Speech down, safe in the knowledge that only Awakened mages will be able to read it. Most grimoires aren't written in Atlantean runes.

                            Where this really starts to bake one's noodle is that Awakened mages start to see and hear High Speech in all sorts of places they weren't expecting it -- short messages written in the architecture of buildings, warnings in the shape of a motorway seen from the air, adverts that contain calls to arms, the sounds of sacred animals making prayers to the Aether. Some will be the result of mages writing things down. Most won't. The Greek Pythias at Delphi were priestesses who, when exposed to certain fumes, ranted in tongues that the priests interpreted into prophecies. A mage who went to hear them would be able to hear what they were actually saying, even if the Pythia didn't know herself. Same with certain Christian groups and Mediums in the modern day - some of them spout High Speech without knowing it.

                            ...
                            So while you may have a rune for "innocence", this does not mean that for the supernal symbolism of "innocence" to exist in the phenomenal, something must be in the shape of that rune. Instead, some mage could speak Mandarin while incorporating those symbols of "innocence", or something as abstract as laughter of a newborn may carry at a point a resonance with the supernal concept, and therefore a mage who is well versed in interpreting the supernal may hear in that laugh "innocence". Or though another rune may express the imago of "Fireball", this same imago may occur and be recognized by a mage in the combination of shape, smell and sound of an explosion of a methane gas. Furthermore, these words in quotes (innocence and fireball) are in themselves incomplete, because the supernal symbol is in fact the complete metaphysical embodiment of each thing (not just a universal descriptor) just like how the word sadness conjures in your mind all the things you associate and feel with sadness (and someone who never felt sadness would not have any true reference for what it meant)..
                            Last edited by Freemind; 05-13-2014, 07:11 AM.

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                            • #29
                              Here is an analogy of how I perceive the journey to understanding the supernal as it reflect our reality. I apologize for its length and for it being heavy on child development and education concepts, but I am in my pediatric clerkship so it is the freshest thing in my head right now:

                              Lets take a book that clearly contains a symbolic message: Animal Farm.
                              -->Animal Farm here is reflecting the phenomenal world and supernal world: The actual story about the farm animals are a phenomenal element, the (very thinly veiled) anti-stalinism message is the supernal symbolism.

                              -If you were to read this book to a group of 3-4 year olds, they would only think that it is a book about talking animals (at this age, kids have difficulty grasping the basic concept that the world does not revolve around them, and that things can even have meaning).
                              -->This is a normal mortal. They can't even begin to percieve that there is anything beyond the normal world. They are incapable of understanding supernal symbolism (due to the abyss), and this prevents them from being able to even hear or perceive supernal symbolism, such as High Speech.

                              -If you were to try and explain that it is a book warning against communism, they would stare at you blankly without any understanding. If you moved on to 1-3rd graders, they would have the same immediate reaction, but could learn by rote that it supposed to reflect symbolism. They will not, however, understand what those things being symbolized are, or exactly why Animal farm is symbolizing them. They also cannot extrapolate the symbolism of Animal Farm to identifying symbolism in other works, beyond repeating rote things taught to them. (Yes there are obvious exceptions, but most kids can't grasp abstract thought till after age 8. They are generally very concrete in their thought process...just try arguing with them based on nuances)
                              -->This is a sleepwalker or a proximi. Sure, they can be shown the symbols of the Supernal, but they can't really manipulate them or apply them beyond what rote applications have been taught to them. The idea of something like high speech existing could be recognized by them, but they could not look at it and actually know what it meant.

                              ------In Human development, people can become naturally arrested at the concrete thinking stage, and some never move beyond basic abstract ideals (For example, they can grasp love, but only in the sense of how they have felt it, rather than as a true abstract). If you ever encountered adults who seem extremely black and white in their viewpoints, and who have difficulty accepting nuanced arguments or disagree when you point out there is a spectrum/many sides...you know someone who is at this stage. Moving beyond this stage requires pressure and resources to be provided, along with the freedom to explore abstract ideas, during the ages of 8-20/25 (depending on the journal) before neural rigidity really sets in (yes, you can learn when older, it is just really hard). This is why those who drop out before high school, or live in extremely regimented families, usually do very poorly with abstract conceptualization if they don't find another venue of learning or expression. If institutionally enforced, you can see this at a cultural level (rare but still can occur in the modern world. but think of cultures that burned books and ban non-sanctioned thought)---
                              -->This is Awakening: the movement from learning symbolism by rote to being able to begin to interpret Supernal Symbolism on your own. I personally like mystery plays, as they are an example of a moment when the mage has total clarity through the lens of their path in being able to see the symbols that underlie all of creation, which they then try to uncover again once their awakening finishes. The Lie of the Exarch is a Supernaly instituted suppression of humanities ability to readily pass this point, the abyss acting as a metaphysical barrier of falsehoods to limit access this higher understanding (Like how propaganda and misinformation is used by tyrants to prevent people from knowing the truth). Paradox is accidentally incorporating these falsehoods into the truths you attempt to express (like when someone copies from a poorly edited wikipedia article), except these falsehoods are alive and actively trying to enforce themselves as the truth itself (like, say, misinformation about vaccines, where people are trying to convince others it is the truth and gaining converts)

                              -Middle school and early high school students can learn to appreciate symbolism on their own, and thus may pick up on the concept that the pigs reflect Stalin or that dictators change the rules. However, they may still need some guidance, and may not always pick up the symbolism right away. They may not always understand it without context, and their view of what those symbols mean could be different based on life context but they can recognize the basic symbol inherent in the work. They can see interpret symbols in other works that were not directly taught, and apply their knowledge to interpret other works. For example, when I read the book, I had a very leftist student in my class interpret animal farm as saying that you must insure a democracy to prevent communism from being corrupted by the power hungry like what happened in stalinist russia, while our rather conservative teacher tried to explain it as a condemnation of all socialist movements ever, yet both parties recognized that the book is a symbol of Stalinism. Some works may transcend their ability to readily grasp though, such as those works that bury concepts or those that use concepts that are not readily accessible, and require further study and practice to truly interpet.
                              -This is beginning and mid-level mages. They can begin to see the Supernal symbols, though they may not always see or understand them immediately. Their Path and Order may color how they perceive the symbols, or which ones they pick up. However, theoretically, with the study and experience, they can get better at observing the Supernal symbols reflected in our world, and get better at manipulating and interpreting them.

                              -High School and early college students have a solid grasp of the abstract. Though they may be challenged with tougher works still, they are at a point where they can begin to fully synthesize the symbolism and draw from it conclusions. While middle schoolers may be able to do this to a lesser extent, high school students would be expected to make deeper inferences and express concepts beyond this. They would be those who you would expect to draw connections between 1984, Fahrenheit 451 and Animal Farm, and use the concepts inherent in them to construct an idea. They usually aren't expected to make up something that isn't inherent in the work, but use the concepts that are part of the work to build an argument.
                              -->This is a master. They have enough understanding to grasp the inherent symbolism of reality, and combine and use those symbols to construct rotes. They can easily grasp the supernal symbols that are reflected in the world that match their arcana.

                              -Late College and Graduate students would be those who you would expect to go beyond and create new meanings of Animal Farm not originally inherent in the work, with the expectation that they would have to support and defend these concepts. An English PhD may argue that Animal Farm is in fact a general critique of all governments (not much of stretch, knowing Orwell), pointing out that all governments inherently become corrupt and fall, not just communist ones, and that therefore the book has a meaning beyond a critique of just Stalinism. They would draw on other concepts, history, and other works of Orwell to do this, but the concept itself is their own. They would be expected to defend this thesis or dissertation. If successful, this new idea or symbol would be considered to also be inherent in the work itself, and if significant enough, may become widely known or taught.
                              -->
                              This is archmastery. You are advanced enough that you quickly can analyze what is in your 6+Arcana to the point you can see the finest nuances that others never would see, and can now construct and enforce your own symbolism on the concept, as long as you successfully build off of existing symbolism and align the world to support your idea.

                              -Being Orwell: you wrote the book and chose both what was in it and what symbolism was used. You yourself are also a symbol as the author of that specific viewpoint.
                              -->This is the Exarchs, the Old Gods, Oracles, or other Supernal Entities. They chose how the symbols are reflected and are themselves a particular argument of how reality is.

                              So where are other supernaturals? In my mind, in this analogy, they are Autistic Savants***:

                              Autism is due to a unique development of the brain that leads to an inability to usually grasp abstract concepts, ranging from advance ones to simple ones such as other people having emotions or lives beyond the patient. They can use concrete thought processes though, and thus usually have very direct and organized approaches to the world. This is why they usually are so reliant on their routines, and can have difficulty with imagination or other things relying on them going beyond what is both immediately apparent or known. In some though, this unique development results in them gaining the ability to organize and analyze concrete information in ways that most people never could (The thing from Rain Man is an actual phenomenon within some autistics). These abilities are very specific but are highly useful, and can at times mimic abstract levels of thought in said narrow field (there is an autistic who is capable of performing abstract algebra, which is normally an upper level college course). And while those who do not have Autism may train to have similar abilities, they are not inherent to these non-autistic people. Furthermore, medical research into autism has yielded lots of information into how those without its minds work by comparing the differences, while also giving insight into the nature of the autism spectrum disorders (and for those with it, Savant Syndrome). While some treatments exist, they only can minimize or limit the symptoms and not undo the neurological changes.
                              -->
                              Supernaturals are those whose souls have undergone a unique change that arrests there development. Though bound to the phenomenal world, their souls now can analyze and interact in specific ways that mimic supernal magics. Though they may never be able to perceive the supernal, mages may use other supernaturals as both guides to what they could possibly due with their abilities, as well as grant insight into the supernal by investigating the differences and unique natures of their souls and abilities. Though mages may have a good understanding of these supernaturals, they cannot directly affect the condition, though they may be able to indirectly minimize the impact of the other supernaturals abilities (Can't directly undermine Dominate, but can construct a mental barrier to weather its effects)

                              Anyway, that is my take on the whole nature. If you read it all, thanks. I hope it makes sense, and that it explains how I am viewing both the Supernal as it relates to humanity and mages, as well as how it interacts with other supernaturals.


                              ***I recognize autism and and other developmental disorders^ are touchy subjects and I hesitated to use this as part of the analogy. I recognize that the autism spectrum is much more complex than I described, for example those that are on the high functioning end may simply have difficulty and not inability in interpreting social cues or moving from concrete patterning to abstract thought. I know that with therapy very early in development, the effects of this disorder can be minimized. I also understand that savantism is a rarity, not a commonality. I have worked as a teacher as well as currently studying pediatrics, and have worked in both settings with patients from all parts of the spectrum, and I am simply utilizing this specific medical aspect in it's most general forms to illustrate another point, not to harm or negatively portray those who are on the autism spectrum.
                              ^Yes, the proper medical term is a disorder. It is a medical term indicating a disturbance of any sort in the mental or physical health of a patient, and for developmental disorders, these are conditions that cause the child to develop symptoms not characteristic of the general population of the same age. It is not a judgment statement, merely the means of expressing the condition.
                              Last edited by Freemind; 05-13-2014, 07:16 AM.

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                              • #30
                                So no one uses the meta language concept from that one book?

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