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  • wyrdhamster
    started a topic How High Speech really sounds?

    How High Speech really sounds?

    So after big discussion on Forsaken forum in which I asked why using Ancient Summerian for First Tounge of Spirits, there were intersting connotation with High Speech of Atlantis for Mage. Let me quote some of them...

    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Human_language

    If Proto-Human is truely first language, and it was passed by Spirits, then would it be also High Speech of Atlantis? We know that High Speech is set of vowels and accents putted on normal tounge. Would it possible those sylabs would be this onomatopeic language given huamnity by "gods" ( i.e. Spirits)?
    Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
    No. Atlantean is it's own language, and like everything else Atlantean, it's mostly gone from the world with Atlantis being wiped from reality. There's no corollary to it.

    High Speech and First Tongue are different languages, and spirits don't know what the hell mages are babbling on about.
    Originally posted by Sikla Alkis View Post
    Makes sense. You can't know the Name of things if there's nothing to use to Name it with, now can you?

    This Wikipedia article may also interest you — the idea of a divine language in culture: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_the_birds
    What is your vision on sound of High Speech and his origin?


  • ckobbe
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    And I'm a bit lost now - so Runes are the same or different for each Awakened? Are they hearing the same or different things? Could there be "Atlantean" for Secrets fo the Ruined Temple games?
    As for whether each Mage sees/hear identical runes, as to whether or not the runes are expressed identically in the fallen world - I don't know. It seems just as likely that they are expressed differently, but perceived the same because mages are awakened as nought. If you really want to bake your noodle, think about this, I don't see any reason why a blind from birth person wouldn't be able to perceive runes as a specific smell or a deaf person perceive high speech as an emotion.

    As far as still being able to play Atlantean games I'd say yes, I think Dave has said it will be addressed in a FWC appendix. My problem with Atlantis has only been with how baked into the system it is. Like most of the rest of the WOD options, I'd rather it was part of the tool kit.

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    And I'm a bit lost now - so Runes are the same or different for each Awakened? Are they hearing the same or different things? Could there be "Atlantean" for Secrets fo the Ruined Temple games?

    Leave a comment:


  • Freemind
    replied
    Originally posted by ckobbe View Post

    I didn't mean to imply that speaking a rune as high speech would have any aural consistency. Almost the opposite. Mage A and Mage B each see them same rune when studying the same spell. They then use it in High Speech and each sounds completely different, but because its High Speech each know exactly what the other is saying and it is equally effective for their magic. Obviously conjecture at this point, and maybe FWC will answer it or it wont, but. since MS is not limited to visual interpretation, its just as reasonable to assume that when a mage sees runes in MS he also hears them, giving us the source for both runes and high speech.

    I like the way runes have be explicitly divorced from Atlantean mythology, I have been rereading a lot of mage books over the last few months, and the Order Splats especially hit you over the head with all the Atlantean stuff. I am hoping this explanations or something similar does the same for High Speech.
    Ahhhh, I see. That is actually a great idea. And you're right, I was definitely thinking of MS as being literally only sight.

    And I agree. I also like that the Runes are no longer ancient Atlantean symbols but things drawn from phenomena that can still be viewed in the modern world.

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  • ckobbe
    replied
    Originally posted by Freemind View Post

    The only problem with high speech being spoken supernal runes is how do you know what a visual representation drawn from naturally occurring patterns sound like? It would be as if the written letter A came first and led to the "A" sound (though with the supernal, you never know...) The new Yantras blog post makes high speech seem as an almost separate parallel entity to supernal runes, where one is visual reflections of supernal symbols and the other is auditory symbolism. They can obviously overlap, such as having both a supernal rune and high speech phrase that symbolize "fire". But in my mind, from the way things are written, each reflects direct supernal symbolism in our realm, rather than one being a codification of the other into another form of expression (like how we codify spoken English into written English). And both seem possible to understand to a minimal degree without activating MS per the most recent blog (specifically the physical runes and speech actively created/spoken by a mage, not the naturally occurring patterns).
    I didn't mean to imply that speaking a rune as high speech would have any aural consistency. Almost the opposite. Mage A and Mage B each see them same rune when studying the same spell. They then use it in High Speech and each sounds completely different, but because its High Speech each know exactly what the other is saying and it is equally effective for their magic. Obviously conjecture at this point, and maybe FWC will answer it or it wont, but. since MS is not limited to visual interpretation, its just as reasonable to assume that when a mage sees runes in MS he also hears them, giving us the source for both runes and high speech.

    I like the way runes have be explicitly divorced from Atlantean mythology, I have been rereading a lot of mage books over the last few months, and the Order Splats especially hit you over the head with all the Atlantean stuff. I am hoping this explanations or something similar does the same for High Speech.

    Leave a comment:


  • Freemind
    replied
    Originally posted by ckobbe View Post

    It sounds like in the FWC that magic rune (which I hate the sound of and will now start calling Supernal Runes) are derived from how mana is perceived by Focused Mage Sight. Between this and wondering how High Speech will be reinterpreted, and reading the above by Dave, a lot of ideas have been percolating around my brain pan.

    First, it seems logical that High Speech would be the spoken form of Supernal Runes. Will a mage be able to perceive High Speech with Peripheral Mage Sight or would it require Active Mage Sight? If Active Mage Sight is required, then would a mage only be able to accurately understand High Speech that matches her active Arcana? I can see interesting reasons to go each way. A mage using High Speech/Supernal Runes to enhance/prolong a spell is obviously using the portions keyed to the appropriate arcana. If the Active MS is needed, then it almost seems like by default each of the five paths would almost be a dialect of High Speech.

    Further more, if Active MS is needed, then would Prime MS as the arcana of magic trump all others and allow a mage to understand what was being communicated?

    The above implies that High Speech/Supernal Runes are used to encode grimoires. Assuming as such, then the same questions apply to reading grimoires. Can only a mage initiated into the Life arcana even tell what Life rotes are encoded into a grimiore. The Voynich manuscript seems like a perfect real world example of a possible grimiore with Life rotes encoded in it. It seems like a massive cyphered script, but us actually a bunch of gobblegook unless looked at with some form of MS.

    Letting everything be perceived and understood by Peripheral MS seems the simplest, but I kind of like the idea of a mage who has just learned his first dot in an Arcana realizing that the an ancester's portrait, that he has seen his entire life, actually has a rote encoded in it. Even if it is more complicated, it is seems truer to the mage themes of mystery, investigation, and revelation.

    It will be interesting to see which direction they have taken FWC.
    The only problem with high speech being spoken supernal runes is how do you know what a visual representation drawn from naturally occurring patterns sound like? It would be as if the written letter A came first and led to the "A" sound (though with the supernal, you never know...) The new Yantras blog post makes high speech seem as an almost separate parallel entity to supernal runes, where one is visual reflections of supernal symbols and the other is auditory symbolism. They can obviously overlap, such as having both a supernal rune and high speech phrase that symbolize "fire". But in my mind, from the way things are written, each reflects direct supernal symbolism in our realm, rather than one being a codification of the other into another form of expression (like how we codify spoken English into written English). And both seem possible to understand to a minimal degree without activating MS per the most recent blog (specifically the physical runes and speech actively created/spoken by a mage, not the naturally occurring patterns).
    Last edited by Freemind; 07-31-2014, 04:54 PM.

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  • ckobbe
    replied
    [QUOTE=Dave Brookshaw;n128082]High Speech doesn't sound like anything, or sounds differently depending on the Mage. To Sleepers and Sleepwalkers, it sounds like gibberish, glossalia, or an unidentified language they don't know. That's because it's not actually a real language but the Supernal platonic ideal of "language" - to Mages, it sounds like gibberish, too, but their Unseen Senses respond to it and they know the information being imparted despite the sounds themselves being nonsense. Most mages can only use it to describe imagos or resonance. Some who are really good at it (and have a Merit) can get short concepts across.

    The real trick is in the writing. Magical runes are derived from the shapes in resonance different types of spell make - they work in spellcasting like drawing a blueprint works in construction. High Speech as a communication method doesn't have to be written in them - you can use any alphabet you like to write High Speech down, safe in the knowledge that only Awakened mages will be able to read it. Most grimoires aren't written in Atlantean runes.[QUOTE]

    It sounds like in the FWC that magic rune (which I hate the sound of and will now start calling Supernal Runes) are derived from how mana is perceived by Focused Mage Sight. Between this and wondering how High Speech will be reinterpreted, and reading the above by Dave, a lot of ideas have been percolating around my brain pan.

    First, it seems logical that High Speech would be the spoken form of Supernal Runes. Will a mage be able to perceive High Speech with Peripheral Mage Sight or would it require Active Mage Sight? If Active Mage Sight is required, then would a mage only be able to accurately understand High Speech that matches her active Arcana? I can see interesting reasons to go each way. A mage using High Speech/Supernal Runes to enhance/prolong a spell is obviously using the portions keyed to the appropriate arcana. If the Active MS is needed, then it almost seems like by default each of the five paths would almost be a dialect of High Speech.

    Further more, if Active MS is needed, then would Prime MS as the arcana of magic trump all others and allow a mage to understand what was being communicated?

    The above implies that High Speech/Supernal Runes are used to encode grimoires. Assuming as such, then the same questions apply to reading grimoires. Can only a mage initiated into the Life arcana even tell what Life rotes are encoded into a grimiore. The Voynich manuscript seems like a perfect real world example of a possible grimiore with Life rotes encoded in it. It seems like a massive cyphered script, but us actually a bunch of gobblegook unless looked at with some form of MS.

    Letting everything be perceived and understood by Peripheral MS seems the simplest, but I kind of like the idea of a mage who has just learned his first dot in an Arcana realizing that the an ancester's portrait, that he has seen his entire life, actually has a rote encoded in it. Even if it is more complicated, it is seems truer to the mage themes of mystery, investigation, and revelation.

    It will be interesting to see which direction they have taken FWC.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sir Phobos
    replied
    The objective of a communication system is to send a message from a transmitter to a receiver using a code (language).

    I always saw High Speech as the ideal communication system, where the transmitter and receiver can understand each other regardless of the code used (spoken language, written language, made-up language, gestures, drawings, etc.), so the only thing needed to send a message is the intention of the transmitter.

    The only problem with this is that one has to make a difference between the written gibberish used to communicate with High Speech and the magical rune used in spells (which can also be used to communicate in High Speech).

    Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
    Where this really starts to bake one's noodle is that Awakened mages start to see and hear High Speech in all sorts of places they weren't expecting it -- short messages written in the architecture of buildings, warnings in the shape of a motorway seen from the air, adverts that contain calls to arms, the sounds of sacred animals making prayers to the Aether. Some will be the result of mages writing things down. Most won't. The Greek Pythias at Delphi were priestesses who, when exposed to certain fumes, ranted in tongues that the priests interpreted into prophecies. A mage who went to hear them would be able to hear what they were actually saying, even if the Pythia didn't know herself. Same with certain Christian groups and Mediums in the modern day - some of them spout High Speech without knowing it.
    I like this idea, it's a great hook into a mistery. The mage percieves a message in High Speech and the first think she wonders is "Who sended the message? another mage? an Exarch? the spirit of the Earth? an unknown cosmic entity?"
    Last edited by Sir Phobos; 07-25-2014, 05:45 PM.

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Amchera was correct all along the High Speech:
    Originally posted by Freemind View Post
    It is complicated. It both is and isn't a meta language. It isn't some proto-tongue spoken by man, or some pre-tower of babel universal human tongue. It is more of the ultimate symbol of language, and thus the ultimate language to describe reality. Here is how I see it:

    The Supernal Symbols underlie all of reality, defining every aspect of it. These symbols comprise the truest aspects of reality. High speech is the supernal means of expressing these symbols without actually having the thing that contains it in front of you. High speech is the language that underlies all of reality, as it is the only language that can actually encapsulate the symbolism of reality completely because it itself is that symbol. It wasn't the first tongue created by humanity, but the language of the universe itself. It is akin to "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.": The words actually encapsulates and brings the supernal symbol into being, or at least fully encapsulates and describes it such that it might as well be present.

    Furthermore, the inverse is also possible: with study of something containing supernal symbolism, the high speech could be heard. Why? Because since the symbol incorporates all elements incorporated in its concept(so a symbol of the Supernal Idea of Freedom contains all elements of freedom) it would also contain its descriptor (i.e. the high speech word).Now, pre-abyss, it would be theoretically possible to create a full language, as the abyss didn't mask and hide the supernal like it does in the present setting. Since High Speech itself is supernal, it can't completely stretch across the abyss, so while elements can still be used, it is extremely difficult to build anything effective.
    -->Therefore, pre-abyss, if a mage said "The sun rises in the east and sets in the west" in High Speech, he is full describing the reality of every single word such that the other mage hearing it would know the complete and utter truth of those realities (so every single aspect of the Supernal Symbols of the Sun, Rising, East, Setting, and West).

    The reason that unawakened can't understand High Speech is that they are unable to parse out the higher meanings that are inherent to supernal symbols. For a mundane example of this, the phrase "Oh, she is being visited by her aunt Flo" will go completely over the heads of a young child (say, age 4), because the true meaning is hidden in a completely innocuous and seemingly mundane statement. The kid has no context to even question such a statement, and even if you explained what it meant, the kid would still have no true understanding of what you are talking about. Now imagine this on the level of fundamental symbols of all reality. Even if I use English, with proper inflection and organization of the words, I can express the higher context that is High Speech.

    Runes are shapes known to essentially act as a written form of high speech, and since they are permanent (at least more so than a spoken word) they can act as a tether for spells by insuring the symbolism is intact. They are not the only way to express a supernal symbol, or even the only way to write a particular concept of high speech, just like how a single word in the dictionary isn't the only way to capture a concept (See my above posts).
    From Mage Sight spoiler for Fallen World Chronicle, we know that Runes are based on patterns the Arcana make when they showing they Truths in Focused Mage Sight. It's totally true what is above. Now I only how to pice this with Secrets of the Ruined Temple take on High Speech as Latin-like dead language.

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  • Errol216
    replied
    Originally posted by amechra View Post
    For whatever reason, my brain is associating High Speech and Huffman Coding; I guess that could mean that I'm seeing High Speech as not so much a language as a... we don't really have words for it.

    Imagine if, instead of saying the word "dog", I handed you the metaphysical paths required to understand the concept of dog in this context.
    It's an algorithm for producing languages.

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  • Freemind
    replied
    Originally posted by amechra View Post
    For whatever reason, my brain is associating High Speech and Huffman Coding; I guess that could mean that I'm seeing High Speech as not so much a language as a... we don't really have words for it. Imagine if, instead of saying the word "dog", I handed you the metaphysical paths required to understand the concept of dog in this context.
    Completely agree. High speech is just a means to do that, and runes are physical constructs. And though high speech is only understood by mages, other things can hold the metaphysical paths beyond what mages code into speech or runes.

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  • amechra
    replied
    For whatever reason, my brain is associating High Speech and Huffman Coding; I guess that could mean that I'm seeing High Speech as not so much a language as a... we don't really have words for it.

    Imagine if, instead of saying the word "dog", I handed you the metaphysical paths required to understand the concept of dog in this context.

    Leave a comment:


  • Freemind
    replied
    Originally posted by StSword View Post
    So no one uses the meta language concept from that one book?
    It is complicated. It both is and isn't a meta language. It isn't some proto-tongue spoken by man, or some pre-tower of babel universal human tongue. It is more of the ultimate symbol of language, and thus the ultimate language to describe reality. Here is how I see it:

    The Supernal Symbols underlie all of reality, defining every aspect of it. These symbols comprise the truest aspects of reality. High speech is the supernal means of expressing these symbols without actually having the thing that contains it in front of you. High speech is the language that underlies all of reality, as it is the only language that can actually encapsulate the symbolism of reality completely because it itself is that symbol. It wasn't the first tongue created by humanity, but the language of the universe itself. It is akin to "And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.": The words actually encapsulates and brings the supernal symbol into being, or at least fully encapsulates and describes it such that it might as well be present.

    Furthermore, the inverse is also possible: with study of something containing supernal symbolism, the high speech could be heard. Why? Because since the symbol incorporates all elements incorporated in its concept(so a symbol of the Supernal Idea of Freedom contains all elements of freedom) it would also contain its descriptor (i.e. the high speech word).Now, pre-abyss, it would be theoretically possible to create a full language, as the abyss didn't mask and hide the supernal like it does in the present setting. Since High Speech itself is supernal, it can't completely stretch across the abyss, so while elements can still be used, it is extremely difficult to build anything effective.
    -->Therefore, pre-abyss, if a mage said "The sun rises in the east and sets in the west" in High Speech, he is full describing the reality of every single word such that the other mage hearing it would know the complete and utter truth of those realities (so every single aspect of the Supernal Symbols of the Sun, Rising, East, Setting, and West).

    The reason that unawakened can't understand High Speech is that they are unable to parse out the higher meanings that are inherent to supernal symbols. For a mundane example of this, the phrase "Oh, she is being visited by her aunt Flo" will go completely over the heads of a young child (say, age 4), because the true meaning is hidden in a completely innocuous and seemingly mundane statement. The kid has no context to even question such a statement, and even if you explained what it meant, the kid would still have no true understanding of what you are talking about. Now imagine this on the level of fundamental symbols of all reality. Even if I use English, with proper inflection and organization of the words, I can express the higher context that is High Speech.

    Runes are shapes known to essentially act as a written form of high speech, and since they are permanent (at least more so than a spoken word) they can act as a tether for spells by insuring the symbolism is intact. They are not the only way to express a supernal symbol, or even the only way to write a particular concept of high speech, just like how a single word in the dictionary isn't the only way to capture a concept (See my above posts).
    Last edited by Freemind; 05-13-2014, 06:43 PM.

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  • StSword
    replied
    So no one uses the meta language concept from that one book?

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  • Freemind
    replied
    Here is an analogy of how I perceive the journey to understanding the supernal as it reflect our reality. I apologize for its length and for it being heavy on child development and education concepts, but I am in my pediatric clerkship so it is the freshest thing in my head right now:

    Lets take a book that clearly contains a symbolic message: Animal Farm.
    -->Animal Farm here is reflecting the phenomenal world and supernal world: The actual story about the farm animals are a phenomenal element, the (very thinly veiled) anti-stalinism message is the supernal symbolism.

    -If you were to read this book to a group of 3-4 year olds, they would only think that it is a book about talking animals (at this age, kids have difficulty grasping the basic concept that the world does not revolve around them, and that things can even have meaning).
    -->This is a normal mortal. They can't even begin to percieve that there is anything beyond the normal world. They are incapable of understanding supernal symbolism (due to the abyss), and this prevents them from being able to even hear or perceive supernal symbolism, such as High Speech.

    -If you were to try and explain that it is a book warning against communism, they would stare at you blankly without any understanding. If you moved on to 1-3rd graders, they would have the same immediate reaction, but could learn by rote that it supposed to reflect symbolism. They will not, however, understand what those things being symbolized are, or exactly why Animal farm is symbolizing them. They also cannot extrapolate the symbolism of Animal Farm to identifying symbolism in other works, beyond repeating rote things taught to them. (Yes there are obvious exceptions, but most kids can't grasp abstract thought till after age 8. They are generally very concrete in their thought process...just try arguing with them based on nuances)
    -->This is a sleepwalker or a proximi. Sure, they can be shown the symbols of the Supernal, but they can't really manipulate them or apply them beyond what rote applications have been taught to them. The idea of something like high speech existing could be recognized by them, but they could not look at it and actually know what it meant.

    ------In Human development, people can become naturally arrested at the concrete thinking stage, and some never move beyond basic abstract ideals (For example, they can grasp love, but only in the sense of how they have felt it, rather than as a true abstract). If you ever encountered adults who seem extremely black and white in their viewpoints, and who have difficulty accepting nuanced arguments or disagree when you point out there is a spectrum/many sides...you know someone who is at this stage. Moving beyond this stage requires pressure and resources to be provided, along with the freedom to explore abstract ideas, during the ages of 8-20/25 (depending on the journal) before neural rigidity really sets in (yes, you can learn when older, it is just really hard). This is why those who drop out before high school, or live in extremely regimented families, usually do very poorly with abstract conceptualization if they don't find another venue of learning or expression. If institutionally enforced, you can see this at a cultural level (rare but still can occur in the modern world. but think of cultures that burned books and ban non-sanctioned thought)---
    -->This is Awakening: the movement from learning symbolism by rote to being able to begin to interpret Supernal Symbolism on your own. I personally like mystery plays, as they are an example of a moment when the mage has total clarity through the lens of their path in being able to see the symbols that underlie all of creation, which they then try to uncover again once their awakening finishes. The Lie of the Exarch is a Supernaly instituted suppression of humanities ability to readily pass this point, the abyss acting as a metaphysical barrier of falsehoods to limit access this higher understanding (Like how propaganda and misinformation is used by tyrants to prevent people from knowing the truth). Paradox is accidentally incorporating these falsehoods into the truths you attempt to express (like when someone copies from a poorly edited wikipedia article), except these falsehoods are alive and actively trying to enforce themselves as the truth itself (like, say, misinformation about vaccines, where people are trying to convince others it is the truth and gaining converts)

    -Middle school and early high school students can learn to appreciate symbolism on their own, and thus may pick up on the concept that the pigs reflect Stalin or that dictators change the rules. However, they may still need some guidance, and may not always pick up the symbolism right away. They may not always understand it without context, and their view of what those symbols mean could be different based on life context but they can recognize the basic symbol inherent in the work. They can see interpret symbols in other works that were not directly taught, and apply their knowledge to interpret other works. For example, when I read the book, I had a very leftist student in my class interpret animal farm as saying that you must insure a democracy to prevent communism from being corrupted by the power hungry like what happened in stalinist russia, while our rather conservative teacher tried to explain it as a condemnation of all socialist movements ever, yet both parties recognized that the book is a symbol of Stalinism. Some works may transcend their ability to readily grasp though, such as those works that bury concepts or those that use concepts that are not readily accessible, and require further study and practice to truly interpet.
    -This is beginning and mid-level mages. They can begin to see the Supernal symbols, though they may not always see or understand them immediately. Their Path and Order may color how they perceive the symbols, or which ones they pick up. However, theoretically, with the study and experience, they can get better at observing the Supernal symbols reflected in our world, and get better at manipulating and interpreting them.

    -High School and early college students have a solid grasp of the abstract. Though they may be challenged with tougher works still, they are at a point where they can begin to fully synthesize the symbolism and draw from it conclusions. While middle schoolers may be able to do this to a lesser extent, high school students would be expected to make deeper inferences and express concepts beyond this. They would be those who you would expect to draw connections between 1984, Fahrenheit 451 and Animal Farm, and use the concepts inherent in them to construct an idea. They usually aren't expected to make up something that isn't inherent in the work, but use the concepts that are part of the work to build an argument.
    -->This is a master. They have enough understanding to grasp the inherent symbolism of reality, and combine and use those symbols to construct rotes. They can easily grasp the supernal symbols that are reflected in the world that match their arcana.

    -Late College and Graduate students would be those who you would expect to go beyond and create new meanings of Animal Farm not originally inherent in the work, with the expectation that they would have to support and defend these concepts. An English PhD may argue that Animal Farm is in fact a general critique of all governments (not much of stretch, knowing Orwell), pointing out that all governments inherently become corrupt and fall, not just communist ones, and that therefore the book has a meaning beyond a critique of just Stalinism. They would draw on other concepts, history, and other works of Orwell to do this, but the concept itself is their own. They would be expected to defend this thesis or dissertation. If successful, this new idea or symbol would be considered to also be inherent in the work itself, and if significant enough, may become widely known or taught.
    -->
    This is archmastery. You are advanced enough that you quickly can analyze what is in your 6+Arcana to the point you can see the finest nuances that others never would see, and can now construct and enforce your own symbolism on the concept, as long as you successfully build off of existing symbolism and align the world to support your idea.

    -Being Orwell: you wrote the book and chose both what was in it and what symbolism was used. You yourself are also a symbol as the author of that specific viewpoint.
    -->This is the Exarchs, the Old Gods, Oracles, or other Supernal Entities. They chose how the symbols are reflected and are themselves a particular argument of how reality is.

    So where are other supernaturals? In my mind, in this analogy, they are Autistic Savants***:

    Autism is due to a unique development of the brain that leads to an inability to usually grasp abstract concepts, ranging from advance ones to simple ones such as other people having emotions or lives beyond the patient. They can use concrete thought processes though, and thus usually have very direct and organized approaches to the world. This is why they usually are so reliant on their routines, and can have difficulty with imagination or other things relying on them going beyond what is both immediately apparent or known. In some though, this unique development results in them gaining the ability to organize and analyze concrete information in ways that most people never could (The thing from Rain Man is an actual phenomenon within some autistics). These abilities are very specific but are highly useful, and can at times mimic abstract levels of thought in said narrow field (there is an autistic who is capable of performing abstract algebra, which is normally an upper level college course). And while those who do not have Autism may train to have similar abilities, they are not inherent to these non-autistic people. Furthermore, medical research into autism has yielded lots of information into how those without its minds work by comparing the differences, while also giving insight into the nature of the autism spectrum disorders (and for those with it, Savant Syndrome). While some treatments exist, they only can minimize or limit the symptoms and not undo the neurological changes.
    -->
    Supernaturals are those whose souls have undergone a unique change that arrests there development. Though bound to the phenomenal world, their souls now can analyze and interact in specific ways that mimic supernal magics. Though they may never be able to perceive the supernal, mages may use other supernaturals as both guides to what they could possibly due with their abilities, as well as grant insight into the supernal by investigating the differences and unique natures of their souls and abilities. Though mages may have a good understanding of these supernaturals, they cannot directly affect the condition, though they may be able to indirectly minimize the impact of the other supernaturals abilities (Can't directly undermine Dominate, but can construct a mental barrier to weather its effects)

    Anyway, that is my take on the whole nature. If you read it all, thanks. I hope it makes sense, and that it explains how I am viewing both the Supernal as it relates to humanity and mages, as well as how it interacts with other supernaturals.


    ***I recognize autism and and other developmental disorders^ are touchy subjects and I hesitated to use this as part of the analogy. I recognize that the autism spectrum is much more complex than I described, for example those that are on the high functioning end may simply have difficulty and not inability in interpreting social cues or moving from concrete patterning to abstract thought. I know that with therapy very early in development, the effects of this disorder can be minimized. I also understand that savantism is a rarity, not a commonality. I have worked as a teacher as well as currently studying pediatrics, and have worked in both settings with patients from all parts of the spectrum, and I am simply utilizing this specific medical aspect in it's most general forms to illustrate another point, not to harm or negatively portray those who are on the autism spectrum.
    ^Yes, the proper medical term is a disorder. It is a medical term indicating a disturbance of any sort in the mental or physical health of a patient, and for developmental disorders, these are conditions that cause the child to develop symptoms not characteristic of the general population of the same age. It is not a judgment statement, merely the means of expressing the condition.
    Last edited by Freemind; 05-13-2014, 07:16 AM.

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