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True Resurrection: this shouldn't work but how?

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  • #31
    I hate to derail this further but would a thyrsus need spirit 5 or 6 in order to study and reverse engineer a numina that ressurects the dead? I'd fancy 6 or even 7 but, if a thysus finds a spirit that has the numen (and im guessing dread powers do not count) can a thyrsus just study the numen? Or if the dread power belonged to a Claimed creature?

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Scarlet Witch View Post
      I hate to derail this further but would a thyrsus need spirit 5 or 6 in order to study and reverse engineer a numina that ressurects the dead?
      Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but it's 4 dots. Shape Spirit lets you add numen. The difficulty is that Resurrection requires a 4+ rank spirit.

      I'd fancy 6 or even 7 but, if a thysus finds a spirit that has the numen (and im guessing dread powers do not count) can a thyrsus just study the numen? Or if the dread power belonged to a Claimed creature?
      At least in 1e, I think it was 7 that let you create entirely new numina.

      The real underlying problem I think is that the Spirit arcana works with something that isn't real, so it's fairly arbitrary what the ST thinks Numina can and can't do. Like, resurrection is only available for +4 rank spirits... but there's no real indication of why this is.


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      • #33
        Originally posted by Lareath View Post
        I've been letting statements like this go by since I didn't want to derail my own question but now my curiosity has gotten the better of me: what is the basis for this assertion that retrieving something from the past requires personally travelling into the past? Especially given spells like Temporal Summoning and Alter History?
        The way that Temporal Sympathy works — i.e. the mechanic that you would need to engage with to meaningfully retrieve a soul after it has vanished — requires that any spell you're using the Attainment with be either a Time spell that specifically calls for it or a spell combined with one of those spells.

        To quote a breakdown I already did for this topic:

        Originally posted by Satchel View Post
        You can send a subject back in time through temporal sympathy because temporal sympathy is "things have a connection to the way they used to be." There is no "used to be" for spells. Momentary Flux and Postcognition are spells that look at a point in time and do nothing else aside from maybe offering a vector for other investigatory spells to be used - Temporal Sympathy extends their range because it's basically pulling copies of established information forward, not because there's suddenly a Time Probe floating around in the past.

        I have elsewhere repeated the sentiments of "changing the past requires time travel" and "the mechanics for noticing when someone or something is trying to change the past through time travel do not exist purely for the purposes of ignoring them as you toss butterfly-effect bombs into the past from the present or are stopped by the ST from doing so through fiat alone" and "there is an entire section at the front of the Time Arcanum writeup before the description of Temporal Sympathy that frames time travel as a thing that moves a subject back to places it's already been and any spell you cast by definition has no sympathy with the time before you cast it."

        The game takes place in the present, provides rules for going to the established past, and offers a quality of temporal magic that interacts with the notion that the past can be repeated in the present through memories and similar records. The more unfamiliar a point in the past is to its subject, the harder it is to bring that past to the subject or send the subject to that past; spells only properly exist within the span of their Duration, not after and not before, which means you can't cast a spell that starts before you actually cast it.


        Resident Lore-Hound
        Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Satchel View Post
          The way that Temporal Sympathy works — i.e. the mechanic that you would need to engage with to meaningfully retrieve a soul after it has vanished — requires that any spell you're using the Attainment with be either a Time spell that specifically calls for it or a spell combined with one of those spells.

          To quote a breakdown I already did for this topic:
          Thanks, that's actually quite insightful and helpful

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