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Plasm vs. Ectoplasm

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  • Therian
    started a topic Plasm vs. Ectoplasm

    Plasm vs. Ectoplasm

    Not sure if I should ask this in the Geist forums or here, but one of my players in my Mage game who was just playing a Sleepwalker is now one of the Bound. While learning the rules for Sin-eaters I discovered they have a power substance called Plasm. Anyone know how this relates to the Ectoplasm described in the Death Arcanum? Is it the same thing. If so that could get pretty crazy what with the Moros just being able to make it, but it doesn't sound exactly the same. Anyway, maybe someone who knows more about both games has more info?

  • Tessie
    replied
    I'm confused.

    Ghosts aren't formed by Plasm (Plasm is actually a by product of ghosts, meaning the whole natural process theory skips a vital step) and even if they were the spell should draw forth all Plasm (however much that would be) from the source during the turn it was cast.

    As for dot rating for drawing out a ghost from a person, the guidelines points towards Weaving: A ghost is formed during near death experiences or deaths, meaning that adding a near death quality to someone (even if they actually aren't) would provide the prerequisites for creating a ghost. A Reach option might be necessary to ensure that the ghost is formed, or maybe the spell might cost Mana and always result in a ghost as to not have a spell that has only a small chance of actually having a result.
    Unlike creating a ghost wholesale (Making) it should even be lasting since the ghost is technically a side effect.

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  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
    Makes sense but now I can’t help but wonder how many dots to puke out a whole ghost that way.
    Five turns. Fifteen whole seconds of nothing but spew.

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  • Sith_Happens
    replied
    Makes sense but now I can’t help but wonder how many dots to puke out a whole ghost that way.

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  • proindrakenzol
    replied
    Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post

    It does match with the more or less arbitrary amount of spirit Essence available for extraction at any given time and place with two dots of Spirit, so there’s that. From a Practice perspective though it is odd that the Ectoplasm spell isn’t Making; for it to be Ruling implies that material bodies (including those of the living) naturally produce/contain Plasm or something close to it.
    A living human can create a ghost, even without dying, ergo there must be a natural* process (strange though it may be) by which a human is able to produce the material required to form a ghost.

    *natural, in this case, meaning without the use of explicit supernatural abilities.

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  • Sith_Happens
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post
    Pretty weird how easy it is to create (which is basically what you do since there's no cap) and at such a low dot rating at that.
    It does match with the more or less arbitrary amount of spirit Essence available for extraction at any given time and place with two dots of Spirit, so there’s that. From a Practice perspective though it is odd that the Ectoplasm spell isn’t Making; for it to be Ruling implies that material bodies (including those of the living) naturally produce/contain Plasm or something close to it.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by Therian View Post
    Based off of Geist without any adjustment for balance it would appear to be one point per size point.
    The quantity of Plasm required to create the Open Condition equals the object's Size, but the Plasm itself doesn't take up the same volume since it's only covering the object. Also, Size is a non-linear and arbitrary scale so it's really not a good measure for a quantifiable unit.

    Originally posted by ForgeEternal View Post
    So how much plasm could a mage with Death 2 make? one point per Potency of the spell? lasting for the Duration of the spell?
    One point per potency makes sense to me. Pretty weird how easy it is to create (which is basically what you do since there's no cap) and at such a low dot rating at that.

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  • Therian
    replied
    Based off of Geist without any adjustment for balance it would appear to be one point per size point.

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  • ForgeEternal
    replied
    So how much plasm could a mage with Death 2 make? one point per Potency of the spell? lasting for the Duration of the spell?

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  • Omegaphallic
    replied
    I think different types of essence are just different frequencies.

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  • LostLight
    replied
    Well, on the subject of "what is Essence", I personally treat it as the basic "energy of existence". Whatever the type of Essence it may be, and what kind of ephemeral entity feeds upon it, it always relates to the entity reinforcing its existence in order to gain Essence- ghosts gain Essence by being remembered, angels by having sacrifices made by their (and their god's) name, spirits gorge upon objects which resonate with what they symbolize. They can even reinforce their existence upon others by stealing their Essence. I've written once a long, in depth argument about the subject, but the way I see it- it is in the name. It is the literal "Essence" of the phenomena related to the ephemeral in question.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
    I'd say it is when memory isn't actually required for that cosmological branch your mentioning. It seems like you're using the term memory to a degree much broader than the actual word memory. When someone stands in front of a light, it casts a shadow, but that shadow is not a memory.
    "You can find buildings and forests in the Shadow that no longer exist in the material world," "most of the time, artificial spirits only awaken to become active entities when their material antecedent is destroyed," and "the scale of the Shadow is affected by the perspectives of animals and other nonhumans as much as it is by people" are all things that the books have established. I am using the actual word memory to mean the same type of thing as when we say that a person's journal contains their memories.

    Ah, just as eating a sandwich is a memory thing because something existed at some point and then it ceased to exist empowering the person who consumes it.
    When people and sandwiches are magical beings who specifically deal with the conceptual energies of the universe as fuel and currency, this will be a solid point.

    Until then, "the uncaring Demiurge and its agents burn the primary supernatural energy of the universe in a way that warps the world around it, acquire that energy through a combination of directed sacrifice by cultists and the complex manipulations of reality that make up the mind and body of the Machine, and aren't too fussed about what happens in the process of getting it as long as the output arrives" means that even though the Aether-producing chunk of the ephemeral being mechanics doesn't truck with the conceptual-conveyance quality of Essence as much as the Shadow does (it's too denatured/hyper-blended for that), "the God-Machine runs on Essence" says something about the setting that wouldn't be said if Aether was a thing that Just Happened.

    Except it's a framework you are headcanoning...
    Again: The textual ways that spirits and the Shadow work are not something I made up.

    That's not memory. That is stuff that matters During the instance the email is being created and sent, not after.
    Journaling. See above.

    .... yes, sort of (glamour is literally born out of emotion so I'd struggle to think of a time when it would be created without emotional resonance)
    Goblin fruit and other Hedge bounty. Literally the primary means by which a changeling can survive in the Hedge without contact with things that aren't (explicitly non-harvestable) fae beings.

    ... my point is that applies to many fuel stats so it doesn't make a very good argument for saying all essence is the same for falling into that category.
    And Essence distinguishes itself from the others by being widespread to the point of nigh-omnipresence, naturally forming self-sustaining feedback loops in sufficient quantities, and otherwise being the energy directly formed by Resonance of all types. "Memory and emotion" is as good a shorthand as any for where a fuel that contains the nature of concepts and is most abundant in the psychic realm of pure ideas and the dreams of the world comes from.
    Last edited by Satchel; 05-28-2019, 10:53 AM.

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  • milo v3
    replied
    Originally posted by Satchel View Post
    "There was a thing here" is not detached from the meaning of "memory" in a setting where the world itself remembers things and there's an entire cosmological branch of the setting built on that fact.
    I'd say it is when memory isn't actually required for that cosmological branch your mentioning. It seems like you're using the term memory to a degree much broader than the actual word memory. When someone stands in front of a light, it casts a shadow, but that shadow is not a memory. i

    It's a long way away to get "this object existed, and the fact that it ceased to materially exist empowered something" to have no connection to memory whatsoever.
    Ah, just as eating a sandwich is a memory thing because something existed at some point and then it ceased to exist empowering the person who consumes it.

    Resources is not an objective value and yet it is used as the basis for determining how much Essence an object's sacrifice grants an angel.
    Yes?

    The fact that the God-Machine processes Essence like an engine burning fuel doesn't make the place that fuel comes from utterly divorced from the wider framework of the setting.
    Except it's a framework you are headcanoning...

    And if that message is important, the qualities it imparts to a spirit that consumes it will matter and will be conveyed, as far as spirits are concerned, through its Essence.
    That's not memory. That is stuff that matters During the instance the email is being created and sent, not after.

    I am reminding you that both Glamour and Essence can be produced without any direct involvement of emotional resonance and that lack of involvement doesn't change the nature of either resource as "a mystical energy that is produced by, among other things, emotions."
    .... yes, sort of (glamour is literally born out of emotion so I'd struggle to think of a time when it would be created without emotional resonance)... my point is that applies to many fuel stats so it doesn't make a very good argument for saying all essence is the same for falling into that category. Some forms of essence, glamour, pyros, plasm, satiety (though I can see the argument that it'd be fair to ignore satiety as it's mechanical structure is very different to other fuel stats being a fuel-stat/integrity hybrid) are all mystical energies that are produced by, among other things, emotions.
    Last edited by milo v3; 05-28-2019, 09:57 AM.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by milo v3 View Post
    .... satchel, that definition of memory is so wide it is completely detached from the meaning of the word.
    "There was a thing here" is not detached from the meaning of "memory" in a setting where the world itself remembers things and there's an entire cosmological branch of the setting built on that fact.

    Just having some connection to an event or object or thing != memory, since we're talking about a game where things happen because of causality, Every fuel stat by your definition is powered by memory.
    It's a long way away to get "this object existed, and the fact that it ceased to materially exist empowered something" to have no connection to memory whatsoever.

    Just having people having the capability of detecting a thing to have happened doesn't imply that those memories somehow are mystically being used as part of that fuel anymore than memories are mystically incorporated into how computers send emails in real-life.
    Resources is not an objective value and yet it is used as the basis for determining how much Essence an object's sacrifice grants an angel. The fact that the God-Machine processes Essence like an engine burning fuel doesn't make the place that fuel comes from utterly divorced from the wider framework of the setting.

    Just because I can remember typing a message, doesn't mean those memories are going to be part of the essence of that email. It just means I can remember writing and sending the email.
    And if that message is important, the qualities it imparts to a spirit that consumes it will matter and will be conveyed, as far as spirits are concerned, through its Essence.

    Also glamour can be taken from people without having the hedge/dreams/arcadia involved (it definitely infuses those things, on that I'm sure we can agree), but it is born from emotion just like any emotional Resonance conditions.
    I am reminding you that both Glamour and Essence can be produced without any direct involvement of emotional resonance and that lack of involvement doesn't change the nature of either resource as "a mystical energy that is produced by, among other things, emotions."

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post

    Wordcount would be a reason.



    Ephemeral entities don't even exist on the same frequencies of reality. Spirits don't consume ghost Essence, it literally isn't real to them except in corner cases (Like Mage meddling) and vice versa.
    Mage meddling in this case being quite a good indicator since no Patterning or even Weaving is needed to transform between different types of Essence. You need Ruling to transfer Essence between different types of ephemeral entities, and that might just be for transfer rather than changing the Essence itself. Ghost Essence not being normally tangible for spirits doesn't have to mean anything other than it being in a different form of Twilight, just like ephemeral entities themselves. And as I stated ephemeral entities are made out of the substance ephemera, something that connects all ephemeral entities on a fundamental level. Ephemeral is decidedly not a short term for beings that use the same set of rules (since non-ephemeral entities use the same rules) and I think it makes perfect sense to think of Essence in the same way.

    Quick edit: Do note that Resonance is the only thing that naturally radiates Essence. Everything else needs to be facilitated in some way (sacrifices) or can only grant Essence to individuals tied to that source (Anchors, memories, Infrastructure).
    Last edited by Tessie; 05-26-2019, 07:13 AM.

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