Spell relinquishment loop hole

[Grog monster]

I've been pouring into signs of sorcery since it came out looking for ideas for an upcoming mage game that I am involved with. Reading through the alternate relinquishment rules I noticed that with the right Arcana one could set up a way to relinquish an unlimited number of spells with no consequence and involving only yourself. With mind 3 and death 3 (or death 5 if you think a mage can't remove their own soul with death 3.) and access to a demesnes (to avoid paradox from casting spells without a soul). A mage simply needs to remove their own soul, cast Broken relinquishment on them self, engage their vice (which is now a breaking point from them.) and then release the spell. After all that a mage can restore their soul and then regain the lost point of wisdom when they regain will power through rest.

I'm not the kind of player that would abuse rules like this since this seems as it wasn't intentional and if I ever ran mage I wound't let my player's use the system like this, but I did think it was interesting and worth sharing on here.

[Michael]

A mage simply needs to remove their own soul,

I think that'd be an Act of Hubris of at least Understanding on it's own. You'd still be bleeding out Wisdom.

[Falcon777]

You THEORETICALLY could innure the spell that did it...but then you're dealing with paradox. At that point you'd need mana and/or double dedicated magic tools to completely do this "safely." And without Space 2 you're going to be limited to casting spells on your sanctum (or wherever else you created your demesne, you crazy person you).

[Tessie]

I noticed that with the right Arcana one could set up a way to relinquish an unlimited number of spells with no consequence

In order to gain WP from a Vice you need to do something of consequence. It might not be much, but you do not gain WP by just staying at home and indulging in whatever with no risk to yourself.

(or death 5 if you think a mage can't remove their own soul with death 3.)

Sever the Awakened Soul is a Death 5 spell. There is no reason to believe that it would require less just because a mage uses themselves as a subject.

and access to a demesnes (to avoid paradox from casting spells without a soul)

Depends on whether "always risks Paradox" from soullessness or "never risks Paradox" from demesnes takes precedence. If it's the latter, you're still limited to spells that resonate with the demesne as well as only spells that doesn't reach out from the demesne.

You can, however, cast the spell you wish to relinquish before you remove your own soul. Relinquishing a spell (regardless of how you do it) can be done whenever during the entire duration of the spell. In that case you don't need to worry about demesnes and tight limits on spells so that they don't risk uncontainable Paradoxes.
It's still not completely risk free, however, as you still need to do something to trigger your Vice.

[Scarlet Witch]

Sort of off topic but anyone looking for loop-holes on relinquishing spells (not OP cuz they already said they wouldnt), the thing is Mages also gain more xp regularly to make up for having to spend xp to cast spells (or wp dots but lets face it thats gonna be xp)

BUT somewhere in 1E there was a waaaayheyhey too good spell that allowed a spirit mage to use a spirits wp instead of her own. Its cruel and bullshit but it was there. So I guess use that. If your wisdom doesnt degenerate you also gain beats for your evil deed!

[Falcon777]

Honestly, if you're truly, truly intent on relinquishing lots of spells and you want to still have all of your willpower without a large xp tax, I would talk with your ST about it because that desire goes against at least one theme built into the game. No one is stopping you from having that option, but it's still something you should talk with your ST about since that very likely would change the expectations of your game.

[Michael]

A similar situation I've been wondering about is sacrificial relinquishment. The core said Blood Sacrifice was an Act of Hurbis but never established what level the different variants actually fell on.

Like, if it's Enlightened for small animal sacrifice then it might be somewhat of a loophole. (Admittedly one that probably leaves you covered in chicken blood.)

Then again, we would be talking dozens of small animals. An Obrimos standing in the middle of a pile of thirty chickens doesn't exactly scream wisdom.

[Scarlet Witch]

An Obrimos standing in the middle of a pile of thirty chickens doesn't exactly scream wisdom.

"I can only sacrifice fifty chickens at a time!"

I guess the solution could be found in Sundered World since they handled it there. I'm guessing goats at the smallest.

[KaiserAfini]

Sort of off topic but anyone looking for loop-holes on relinquishing spells (not OP cuz they already said they wouldnt), the thing is Mages also gain more xp regularly to make up for having to spend xp to cast spells (or wp dots but lets face it thats gonna be xp)

BUT somewhere in 1E there was a waaaayheyhey too good spell that allowed a spirit mage to use a spirits wp instead of her own. Its cruel and bullshit but it was there. So I guess use that. If your wisdom doesnt degenerate you also gain beats for your evil deed!

Didn't that require the willing cooperation of a Rank 3+ spirit ? I think it also mentioned that it often involved a significant favor in exchange. So technically it should be as difficult as werewolves negotiating the chiminage for a Gift. Spirit Pact from Tome of the Mysteries, I believe.

[Satchel]

Didn't that require the willing cooperation of a Rank 3+ spirit ? I think it also mentioned that it often involved a significant favor in exchange. So technically it should be as difficult as werewolves negotiating the chiminage for a Gift. Spirit Pact from Tome of the Mysteries, I believe.

Yup, that's the one:

"Expect the service to be difficult, dangerous, and time-consuming; it will typically comprise a chapter or story unto itself. […] Only after the quest has been completed will the spirit fulfill its side of the bargain."

[Grog monster]

A similar situation I've been wondering about is sacrificial relinquishment. The core said Blood Sacrifice was an Act of Hurbis but never established what level the different variants actually fell on.

Like, if it's Enlightened for small animal sacrifice then it might be somewhat of a loophole. (Admittedly one that probably leaves you covered in chicken blood.)

Then again, we would be talking dozens of small animals. An Obrimos standing in the middle of a pile of thirty chickens doesn't exactly scream wisdom.

I've always been baffled by the small animal sacrifice, I can think of many animals in the world where it is considered good to kill them due to the habitat destruction they cause and danger they posses to other animals. Take an example Kang toads in Australia, we have over 200 Million of them over here and on the northern side of the country there are public events where people capture and kill kang toads together. I can imagine a life mage using lure and repel to gather hundreds of them capturing them and then using them to relinquish spells or just to gain mana from them. No Reasonable person would call this unethical, they are helping control the spiralling out of control kang toad population and saving native species. I would find it hard to justify calling this an act of hubris.

[proindrakenzol]

I've always been baffled by the small animal sacrifice, I can think of many animals in the world where it is considered good to kill them due to the habitat destruction they cause and danger they posses to other animals. Take an example Kang toads in Australia, we have over 200 Million of them over here and on the northern side of the country there are public events where people capture and kill kang toads together. I can imagine a life mage using lure and repel to gather hundreds of them capturing them and then using them to relinquish spells or just to gain mana from them. No Reasonable person would call this unethical, they are helping control the spiralling out of control kang toad population and saving native species. I would find it hard to justify calling this an act of hubris.

Killing an animal isn't an act of hubris.

Ritualistically killing an animal in order to extract the Supernal Truths that make up its being in order to fuel your own quest for power is an act of Hubris.

It's the selfish pursuit of power that makes it an act of Hubris, not the killing.

[Michael]

I guess the solution could be found in Sundered World since they handled it there. I'm guessing goats at the smallest.

I'd forgotten about that. Though reading it, I wonder, did the Vinca have chickens? (Or smaller domesticated animals) Like, you're right that it has goats as the smallest, but they still give 2 mana, not 1.

[Scarlet Witch]

Killing an animal isn't an act of hubris.

Ritualistically killing an animal in order to extract the Supernal Truths that make up its being in order to fuel your own quest for power is an act of Hubris.

It's the selfish pursuit of power that makes it an act of Hubris, not the killing.

I personally wouldn't consider it an Act for a Thyrsus but I'm clearly biased. Unless that Thyrsus sees all life as sacred instead, which would make for a great Vow. But an Acanthus or Obrimos? I could...

At least at first. If the Mage overly relies on this method, if it grows into like a chore or obsessive, that would change. From "recycling toads while repairing balance" to "oh shoot gotta go kill me some toads!", I could see an Act of Hubris lining up.

OR, even the creation of a Hallow whose addictive tass compels an addiction to killing the toads, formed at the exterminators ritual space.

[Michael]

At least at first. If the Mage overly relies on this method, if it grows into like a chore or obsessive, that would change.

Personally, I think that's the right approach. It could also make for an pretty interesting slip into Hubris as mages push the amount they perform; especially the oft mentioned possibility of using an Abattoir to sacrifice hundreds of animals and reap vast amounts of mana.

Also, though it doesn't say it, it'd make sense if mana from a sacrifice didn't have the healthiest resonance to it.