Spell relinquishment loop hole

[Grog monster]

I've been pouring into signs of sorcery since it came out looking for ideas for an upcoming mage game that I am involved with. Reading through the alternate relinquishment rules I noticed that with the right Arcana one could set up a way to relinquish an unlimited number of spells with no consequence and involving only yourself. With mind 3 and death 3 (or death 5 if you think a mage can't remove their own soul with death 3.) and access to a demesnes (to avoid paradox from casting spells without a soul). A mage simply needs to remove their own soul, cast Broken relinquishment on them self, engage their vice (which is now a breaking point from them.) and then release the spell. After all that a mage can restore their soul and then regain the lost point of wisdom when they regain will power through rest.

I'm not the kind of player that would abuse rules like this since this seems as it wasn't intentional and if I ever ran mage I wound't let my player's use the system like this, but I did think it was interesting and worth sharing on here.

[Menace]

The fact you said that with the homonculus tattoo from Fullmetal Alchemist as your profile pic is hilarious!

It's actually a poetic represantation of a molecule of benzene, refering to how August Kekule discovered supposedly "discovered" it's structure when he saw the snake ouroboros in his dream. Yeah, that's apparently a thing.

[KaiserAfini]

The fact you said that with the homonculus tattoo from Fullmetal Alchemist as your profile pic is hilarious!

Well, there is a reason why those alchemical backlashes happen. What do those alchemists see when they attempt human transmutation ? The door of alchemy ? No, only the uninitiated remain so deceived. They stand before the Gate. He opens the path to enact cruel change on the Fallen, she drags the arrogant and prideful to be scoured by the Abyss when they overreach. She brings forth the homunculus to torment humanity and he retrieves them once enough souls have been offered via philosopher's stones. The Gate is keeper and threshold, Opener and Warder, just like its Order.

[Scarlet Witch]

'It's easy, you just need to remove your own Soul" - last words of a left handed mage before being put down but a Adamantine arrow strike force.

The fact you said that with the homonculus tattoo from Fullmetal Alchemist as your profile pic is hilarious!

[Menace]

'It's easy, you just need to remove your own Soul" - last words of a left handed mage before being put down but a Adamantine arrow strike force.

[Neos01]

What level?

Considering that the destruction of supernal.entities is falling level i would say understanding for human and enlighted for animals

[Michael]

always an act of hubris

What level?

[Neos01]

My opinion (i already wrote it in a similar post) is that the act of sacrificing a living thing is always an act of hubris because you are not drawing mana from the supernal into the fallen (like in the other methods) but from the fallen world itself.
In this way you make the fallen world less "truer" and let the Abyss take more hold.
When a player sacrifice something i describe the corpse turning into ashes or completely losing color, like some sort of mini paradox.
Obviously it s an house rule but it helps me justify the act of hubris for game balance and puts some interesting questions in the game

[Michael]

I would say being able to make sacrifices without Wisdom risk is the main draw of the Haruspex

I don't see it unless you're making blood sacrifice an Act of Hubris at Understanding, which seems very harsh.

[KaiserAfini]

I would say being able to make sacrifices without Wisdom risk is the main draw of the Haruspex (human sacrifice being also made more efficient, as per the Soul Cage side story). If you take inspiration from Pathologic 2, you can color their symbolism with all sorts of intriguing supernatural correspondence.

[Michael]

At least at first. If the Mage overly relies on this method, if it grows into like a chore or obsessive, that would change.

Personally, I think that's the right approach. It could also make for an pretty interesting slip into Hubris as mages push the amount they perform; especially the oft mentioned possibility of using an Abattoir to sacrifice hundreds of animals and reap vast amounts of mana.

Also, though it doesn't say it, it'd make sense if mana from a sacrifice didn't have the healthiest resonance to it.

[Scarlet Witch]

Killing an animal isn't an act of hubris.

Ritualistically killing an animal in order to extract the Supernal Truths that make up its being in order to fuel your own quest for power is an act of Hubris.

It's the selfish pursuit of power that makes it an act of Hubris, not the killing.

I personally wouldn't consider it an Act for a Thyrsus but I'm clearly biased. Unless that Thyrsus sees all life as sacred instead, which would make for a great Vow. But an Acanthus or Obrimos? I could...

At least at first. If the Mage overly relies on this method, if it grows into like a chore or obsessive, that would change. From "recycling toads while repairing balance" to "oh shoot gotta go kill me some toads!", I could see an Act of Hubris lining up.

OR, even the creation of a Hallow whose addictive tass compels an addiction to killing the toads, formed at the exterminators ritual space.

[Michael]

I guess the solution could be found in Sundered World since they handled it there. I'm guessing goats at the smallest.

I'd forgotten about that. Though reading it, I wonder, did the Vinca have chickens? (Or smaller domesticated animals) Like, you're right that it has goats as the smallest, but they still give 2 mana, not 1.

[proindrakenzol]

I've always been baffled by the small animal sacrifice, I can think of many animals in the world where it is considered good to kill them due to the habitat destruction they cause and danger they posses to other animals. Take an example Kang toads in Australia, we have over 200 Million of them over here and on the northern side of the country there are public events where people capture and kill kang toads together. I can imagine a life mage using lure and repel to gather hundreds of them capturing them and then using them to relinquish spells or just to gain mana from them. No Reasonable person would call this unethical, they are helping control the spiralling out of control kang toad population and saving native species. I would find it hard to justify calling this an act of hubris.

Killing an animal isn't an act of hubris.

Ritualistically killing an animal in order to extract the Supernal Truths that make up its being in order to fuel your own quest for power is an act of Hubris.

It's the selfish pursuit of power that makes it an act of Hubris, not the killing.

[Grog monster]

A similar situation I've been wondering about is sacrificial relinquishment. The core said Blood Sacrifice was an Act of Hurbis but never established what level the different variants actually fell on.

Like, if it's Enlightened for small animal sacrifice then it might be somewhat of a loophole. (Admittedly one that probably leaves you covered in chicken blood.)

Then again, we would be talking dozens of small animals. An Obrimos standing in the middle of a pile of thirty chickens doesn't exactly scream wisdom.

I've always been baffled by the small animal sacrifice, I can think of many animals in the world where it is considered good to kill them due to the habitat destruction they cause and danger they posses to other animals. Take an example Kang toads in Australia, we have over 200 Million of them over here and on the northern side of the country there are public events where people capture and kill kang toads together. I can imagine a life mage using lure and repel to gather hundreds of them capturing them and then using them to relinquish spells or just to gain mana from them. No Reasonable person would call this unethical, they are helping control the spiralling out of control kang toad population and saving native species. I would find it hard to justify calling this an act of hubris.