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Why is the Hegemonic Ministry the one that is being replaced?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post
    Also what book is the Geryon Ministry in?
    They pop up as an off-hand mention in Left-hand Path then more explicitly in Signs of Sorcery. Also, they're tangentially related to the story in the original 1e core.


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    • #17
      Originally posted by Michael View Post

      They pop up as an off-hand mention in Left-hand Path then more explicitly in Signs of Sorcery. Also, they're tangentially related to the story in the original 1e core.
      And they feature in Dark Eras 2.


      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
      The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
      Feminine pronouns, please.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Konradleijon View Post

        IDK I hear lots of criticism of Capitalism or Neoliberalism then again I Regularly watch breadtube. And R/Anarchism, also 52 Precent of Younger people doubt capitalism.
        The biggest problem in today's society is that Capitalism is hard to attack while still existing within it because most of us depend on the Capitalist system for our basic needs, and more responsible purchasing options often lie with those who are benefiting from the system. Your buy your tomatoes from a supermarket, at the end of the day.

        Belief in the Lie is not important. Letting the Lie keep your attention from the Truth is. And in that way, everything from the hamster wheel for your food to the hamster wheel for belonging through iconographic identity is highly effective. You may hate capitalism, and even don't want to participate in it, even contribute to non-capitalist communities-but at the end of the day, if you end your day buying things, making a meal, and enjoying it in front of a television program brought to you buy that system, then you're still participating in that system, and distracted from higher realities for it.

        "This is the nature of systems: the moment you reject them, you are forced to realize they’re the very ground you’re standing on" is a very real problem for both mages and aspirational individuals.


        Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
        The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
        Feminine pronouns, please.

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        • #19
          So Fuck Capitalism?

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          • #20
            I bet the idea that the Hegemon i gonna fall... is kinda created by Hegemon mages themselves. They are destroting us, we must retaliate, after all.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by arthexis View Post
              I bet the idea that the Hegemon i gonna fall... is kinda created by Hegemon mages themselves. They are destroting us, we must retaliate, after all.
              Well, the enemy must both be strong and weak.


              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
              Feminine pronouns, please.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
                Personally I'm highly unconvinced that the Hegimonic Ministry is going to fall. I think that idea relies on a very narrow view of history that starts around WWII. If you go back far enough Autocracy was a progressive, yes, progressive, idea. Thomas Hobbes' book Leviathan would be an example of this. The idea was that one strong king who has an absolute state monopoly on violence could end the never ending feudal conflicts between barons and counts and bring about peace and stability. That has enormous parallels to the problems facing today's Hegimon.

                You belong to this barony/country and must fear the people from the neighbouring barony/country. Remember what those bastards did in the war?

                Fast forward and nationalism is the progressive idea. In the early modern world loyalty to monarchy and religion is declining; a sense of national identity would be the new cement to hold society together in a progressive spirit of "liberté, égalité, fraternité". If the Unity is control through xenophobia you can't ignore how a spirit of nationalism helped overcome divisions; for example by uniting the various German states into one Germany. Or by bringing East and West Germany toeather after the fall of the Berlin Wall. (I'm sure you all know the dark side of German Nationalism so I don't need to go into that here.)

                What we're seeing today with globalisation is nothing new. In the short term (read, 100 years at least) I think it's significantly more likely to lead to something like competing power blocks (USA, EU, China) that are fairly close to modern nation states in structure than it is to lead to something drastically different like cyberpunk style megacorps replacing traditional governments. The borders get bigger, the poeple inside those borders Unify, but in the end there's still geographical regions with us and them on the other side. Us might include more ethnic groups than before, but go back far enough and Anglo Saxons and Normans would have as much tension as German Americans and African Americans. (Fun fact, people with Norman surnames are still disproportionately represented in top universities).

                I feel the writers missed a big opportunity here. The Unity is all about conformity and subsuming the individual to the state, but every time some progressive movement has replaced the old style state, they've done it with a bigger state. Is the Unity running some big scam where everyone opposing The Unity is secretly another agent of The Unity? "We got those silly Prussians and Saxons to merge conform into Germans. Mwahahaa. Next well unify the Germans and the French! Then the world!!! MWAHAHA". It also does make sense that somebody called The Unity would like to make all the various nations with their own cultures and traditions conform to one Unified world state at some point.

                Personally I really like that idea. That the world is so thoroughly under the Exarch's thumb that every option is still submission to the Exarchs. Unless the entire population goes and lives as hermits or something.
                I more or less agree with this except the last part about having to become hermits*. Globalization has only made the State more “godlike” and unassailable. Large corporations and the State almost always work in tandem against the people. They have far more to gain working together against “us” than they do fighting. If anything I would say that all four of the Ministries have become more powerful in the 21st century.

                I wouldn’t be surprised if the Ministries are actually cohesive allies to one another and their supposed rivalry is greatly exaggerated to lure the Pentacle into a false sense of security.

                *Their power is tied to Vice and tyranny. They represent pathocracy, rule by sociopaths, Cluster-B’s and evil. Imo they could be beaten if everyone simply embraced Virtue/“goodness.”

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Livius Magos View Post

                  I more or less agree with this except the last part about having to become hermits*. Globalization has only made the State more “godlike” and unassailable. Large corporations and the State almost always work in tandem against the people. They have far more to gain working together against “us” than they do fighting. If anything I would say that all four of the Ministries have become more powerful in the 21st century.

                  I wouldn’t be surprised if the Ministries are actually cohesive allies to one another and their supposed rivalry is greatly exaggerated to lure the Pentacle into a false sense of security.

                  *Their power is tied to Vice and tyranny. They represent pathocracy, rule by sociopaths, Cluster-B’s and evil. Imo they could be beaten if everyone simply embraced Virtue/“goodness.”

                  Which all sounds great for the Seers, right up until you read their actual motto. "We deserve power, and the Exarchs will give us that power." By definition, some are more deserving than others.

                  For all their posturing, the first people the Seers learn to Lie to is themselves. "Cohesive ally" for them is "guy who thinks exactly like me and does not have something I want or wants something I have or wants what I want."

                  That is not possible. They need the Pentacle to define an enemy to define themselves against. Because if they don't have an enemy outside the group, they'll find one within it. That is evil. It is stupid, short-term, and unwise. Patient people, who understand ethical selfishness, don't generally act like overblown sociopaths, they recognize what's good for the all is good for them - but they would have to recognize people who aren't like them might benefit too.

                  If you're looking for a great plan to deceive their enemies, you've already been fooled by them. The world is a far stranger and more menacing place than one where there is coherent "sides" in a war; they want you to think they're this monolithic, unassailable force, because then they might believe it. If you see the cracks - well, suddenly the Exarchs' promises don't seem so appealing anymore, do they?

                  EDIT: And assuming that large corporations and states work together because something something oppression is an incredible oversimplification. They often benefit each other, but assuming it's at all coordinated assumes a level of forethought a lot of people who do this just don't have. Or organization. Or really, ability to trust the other. There's a reason corporate-run states are known to be utterly incompetent at being states.
                  Last edited by Leliel; 01-01-2020, 07:26 PM.


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                  • #24
                    honestly, the Hegemony losing so much power is kinda ridiculous. I feel it's because at the time 1st edition was a thing, mega corporations were like a big idea in fiction. with that, they felt they could have a sorta business style ministry while excusing all the incredibly corrupt governments in today's world (relative I mean. obviously chronicles of darkness does not ignore corrupt government, but mage seems to act like the corporations are a lot worse)

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Leliel View Post
                      There's a reason corporate-run states are known to be utterly incompetent at being states.
                      To be honest, I've never clocked any of those, can you name any examples?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
                        To be honest, I've never clocked any of those, can you name any examples?

                        The big one that comes to mind is India when the East India Trading Company was still owning it.

                        To say it was an economic disaster was putting it mildly. One of the dirty secrets about colonialism is that colonies tend to operate at monetary losses, and India's infrastructure under them was so cheap and half-assed that much of its own money was based around trying to put out the fires they themselves caused, because trying to build proper infrastructure did not lead to high profits for that year, so there was no will to do so. The Company was kept alive by regular infusions of cash from the British, not because they could support themselves from their colony.


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                        • #27
                          IMO the Chancellor pushing aside the Unity isn't the main error in Seers of the Throne. The real mistake is placing the Father as a major Exarch.

                          See, the Unity represents fascism, straight up - the idea that a nation should place itself, entirely, into the service of a state and be organized toward a single goal. The Chancellor represents materialism, the idea that matter is the basic reality and minds a mere byproduct. And the Father represents fideism, the idea that reason is inherently corrupt and leads only to sin, and that only uncritical obedience to authority can instill virtue. Now look at the 20th century - do you see explicitly religious tyranny anywhere in it? Religious faith generally was at a nadir during that century; it was dwindling as the 19th century advanced, and is reviving now, but hasn't really become a serious political force. Materialism and fascism, meanwhile, were the dominant ideas of that century. Its course could be summarized, in fact, as fascism's promising to bring material abundance to the nations that accepted it, and then failing to deliver - that is, the Chancellor seated in judgement over the Unity, and finding him wanting.

                          A truer allegory for recent politics would have the Unity and the Chancellor as the two premier Exarchs, dividing the world between them, and the Chancellor with the upper hand, having won a decisive victory with the Soviet Union's collapse. The Father would be, at best, a returning power, taking what opportunities he can.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post
                            IMO the Chancellor pushing aside the Unity isn't the main error in Seers of the Throne. The real mistake is placing the Father as a major Exarch.

                            See, the Unity represents fascism, straight up - the idea that a nation should place itself, entirely, into the service of a state and be organized toward a single goal. The Chancellor represents materialism, the idea that matter is the basic reality and minds a mere byproduct. And the Father represents fideism, the idea that reason is inherently corrupt and leads only to sin, and that only uncritical obedience to authority can instill virtue. Now look at the 20th century - do you see explicitly religious tyranny anywhere in it?
                            Uh.

                            Everywhere.

                            A lot.


                            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                            Feminine pronouns, please.

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                            • #29
                              The counter argument here is that the current surge of nationalism around the world are the death throws of the nation state before the inevitable tide of multinational corporate power - the long term tragedy being that said nationalist movements are backed by said multinational corporate powers because they don’t actually inhibit those forces but do inhibit the creation of democratic international institutions that could serve to check said corporate power.
                              Last edited by glamourweaver; 01-02-2020, 02:54 PM.


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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post
                                Now look at the 20th century - do you see explicitly religious tyranny anywhere in it? Religious faith generally was at a nadir during that century; it was dwindling as the 19th century advanced, and is reviving now, but hasn't really become a serious political force.
                                It doesn't have to be explicit (most Exarchs doesn't represent outright dictatorships). It doesn't have to be a political force (although it very much still is). It only needs to be present in society for the Father and the Paternoster to flourish. Imposing injustice based on religious doctrine is something that happens globally; be it through legalism or domestically within the home. It's not as pervasive as it once was, but even today I'd consider the Father being the foremost of the Archigenitors. As I wrote in the very first reply in this thread; the Father's influence diminishing doesn't mean he's lagging behind, only that the gap between him and the others is shrinking.

                                Also, the status of being an Archigenitor is based on the success of your largest Ministry. As long as the Paternoster is going strong in their endeavours they're still a major Ministry even though their (absolutely massive) arena has shrunk a little.
                                On the same theme, the Hegemonic Ministry was probably heavily invested in the fascist movements, organisations and nations that arose in the 20th century. Once many of those broke apart they probably lost a lot of their influence even though new movements has arisen since then. I.e. even if Unity's influence isn't as broken as we thought back when the book was written, it doesn't mean the Hegemonic Ministry reflects that.


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