Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Why is the Hegemonic Ministry the one that is being replaced?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Why is the Hegemonic Ministry the one that is being replaced?

    Greetings,

    The fluff of the Seers mentions that Unity is soon to be kicked out of the list of Archigenitors, to be replaced by the Chancellor. But if the World of Darkness is like ours but with supernatural creatures, the Father or the General seems to be the ones losing ground:
    - Even counting Syria, ISIL, Boko Haram, Yemen and other recent conflicts, worldwide there are fewer conflicts and deaths by violence every decade.

    - If the diminishing of violence could be reasonably doubted, at least religiosity is going down surely. Materialism (the Chancellor) is not eating patriotism but religiosity (the Father).
    The rise of the extreme right and nationalistic interests recently shows that Hegemonic is alive and kicking, and the Father seems to be the one in trouble. Am I missing something? Are there signs that show that Hegemonic is truly dying?
    Last edited by lbeaumanior; 07-24-2019, 11:01 AM.

  • Michael
    replied
    I think there's a ready-made get out jail card, in that the Ministries are explicitly called out as institutions, rather than the platonic organisations of the Pentacle. The fact that Hegemony are failing at the time that their ideals are rising, is potentially just a result of their organisation being bad.

    Much as I agree that Hegemony going down feels odd, I'd give the writers credit for writing a way out.

    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    ]I'm sure in Poland Hegemonic went hand in hand with Paternostern - and so our country becomes Confessional State of Catholic fundamentalists...[/B]
    It's a very Hegemonic ideal of Catholicism. I'm not Polish, but from the outside it looks like the Catholicism is pretty secondary to the nationalism. To be honest, that seemed to be the underlying problem with Paternoster. They're a religious Ministry that exists long after religion has simply become a nationalist signifier.

    Leave a comment:


  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    I just think that writers did not had crystal balls when writing corebook in 2014 ( remember, book is written more than one year before premier it's as PDF ). In 2014 we could not predict that from liberal democracy, Poland will become light fascists regime governed by religious fundamentalism of local branch of Catholic Church in 2020. I'm LGBT+ aware person, looking over social changes half of life, and even I did not foreseen it.

    In my mind - Hegemonic should literally regain it's position as leader Greater Ministry in 2020. This rise of fascists tendancies in Western governments, panic of COVID-19 and general rise of xenophobia is it's literal modus operandi.

    I dunno, maybe Hegemonic Ministers done something very big in last 5-6 years with reality itself that society is so much drastically changing? I'm sure in Poland Hegemonic went hand in hand with Paternostern - and so our country becomes Confessional State of Catholic fundamentalists...
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 08-06-2020, 04:54 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • arthexis
    replied
    I've been thinking about this more and more and I am now convinced that the idea of Hegemonic ministry as the weakest of the bunch is an outright lie to instill fervor within the ministry itself and for other factions to think they can be defeated while hidding their true strength. The Hegemon is always falling: that is the status quo. They try to position themselves as the underdog while actually holding real functional power over the world in the form of political influence and money. The Unity only works and is only attractive if there is a threat of constant dissolution and deadly fragmentation. The world is breaking down, and only we can fix it! Rally behind us! Who doesn't want unity and peace? But, alas, it is so fragile! We need YOUR help to become united...

    Leave a comment:


  • Satchel
    replied
    Reminder that the Exarchs are not limited to patronizing one Ministry at a time and that the Chancellor in particular supports at least fourteen Ministries, including not only Mammon but Pantechnicon, a lesser Ministry that both lost the race with Panopticon to become a Great Ministry during the 1940s and is characterized as made up in large part of Hegemonic defectors.

    Leave a comment:


  • mcgonigle
    replied
    Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post

    I understand that the ministry has made mistakes, but a large part or what makes a ministry powerful and more attractive to prospective seers is when the I influence of its respective Exarch is far reaching and strong. while I can see them being weakened by their mistakes, I see no reason as to why they are steadily losing influence within the Throne
    Firstly I suspect that isn't the case, as new Seers are being recruited they aren't going to have the mystic understanding of which Exarch is dominant, who recruits them, who makes a good early pitch. There may be cases of Seers awakening directly to an Exarch and then ending up in that ministry. But it's not certain that actually happens as opposed to being spin, and even so it will only account for seers of that path (and probably not all of them.)

    Secondly if the Hegemonic ministry has recently had a really prominent loss that's the information the proto-seer has access to easily. Even if it isn't the case the Chancellor's Ministry gaining ower from the Unities Ministry could be misinterpreted to the Exarches are swapping position even if that is wrong.

    Thirdly I am certain that weakening the ministry will drastically reduce the effective influence of the Exarch. As much as they are drawing power from the state of the world the ministries are their primary tools of influence. The pieces on the board. Yes, they have other tools, but the use of these is always referred to as rare when compared to the actions of the Seers (and if the Unity and it's Archmage minions are relying on Ochumenta and subtle intervention more

    Leave a comment:


  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    Worth noting the ascendance of a Ministry has nothing to do with the success of their Exarch sponsor. They are completely temporal phenomena. Many Ministries have come and gone.

    This is in stark contrast to the Pentacle, or at least the Diamond which even if you wiped them out would arise again.

    If you wiped out a Ministry it’s gone. Sure, Seers would choose to worship that Exarch still, but they’d form a new Ministry to do it. It’s happened before.

    Speculating, but it’s mentioned in SoS that apparently Ananke were active during the era of Alexander and helped engineer the original conception of the Pentacle. That could be why the Diamond formed and can’t be truly erased since the Ananke are still around just waiting for their cue to ensure the Orders arise again and again. Ministries apparently don’t bother to have that kind of insurance. Probably because the Seers have the Exarchs, and as long as worship of the Exarchs continues they have no need to direct specific Ministries to exist.

    Essentially, if Mammon is on the rise, and the Hegemon is on the way out, the Exarchs don’t care because they still have their adoring slaves. Only the Seers are keeping that score.
    Last edited by Mrmdubois; 01-05-2020, 01:32 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Primordial newcomer
    replied
    Originally posted by mcgonigle View Post
    It might be worth focusing on the Hegemonic Ministry rather than the fields they represent:

    The Hegemonic Ministry is the oldest true Ministry, at one point they were completely dominant within the Seers as the only great ministry being founded in the 16th century (and the Seers don't seem to have the absurd dull historical constancy of the Diamond Orders) all the other Ministries were formed since, during which times what a state is how it acts and how you manipulate it has changed vastly. There are multiple points where they could have thrown in behind the wrong power and lost influence, and I'd be surprised if some of their Pylons didn't loose power during WW2, as they back the wrong superstates.

    The other Factor is the 'Great Refusal' that was the Hegemonic Ministries Grand Failure, and the books actually talk about that as a factor more than the symbolism of the world. The Great Purge probably cost the ministry greatly both in terms of political prestige, but also probably casualties. Representatives who had been working with the Nameless orders, getting killed as the Free Council is born. Those causalities are likely from the more modern members of the Hegemonic, and it's that loss of mindset and skill that creates the possibility of the Ministry Falling.

    Mammon is a younger ministry, maybe the youngest of the 5, probably with any Archmages understanding the modern world better, it's power is likely to be more focused in the more capitalist countries which are generally on the ascent through this time period. With the great refusal they start to gain power in areas that would traditionally be Hegemonic controlled, the wars leave them coming out stronger. (The Panopticon is probably also growing and intruding into
    For all the Trump administration with it's Xenophobia and America First aspects is upholding the ideals of the Unity, that could just as easily be the success of the Chancellor (Or at least they have an easier time dealing with the erratic businessman.)
    I understand that the ministry has made mistakes, but a large part or what makes a ministry powerful and more attractive to prospective seers is when the I influence of its respective Exarch is far reaching and strong. while I can see them being weakened by their mistakes, I see no reason as to why they are steadily losing influence within the Throne

    Leave a comment:


  • mcgonigle
    replied
    It might be worth focusing on the Hegemonic Ministry rather than the fields they represent:

    The Hegemonic Ministry is the oldest true Ministry, at one point they were completely dominant within the Seers as the only great ministry being founded in the 16th century (and the Seers don't seem to have the absurd dull historical constancy of the Diamond Orders) all the other Ministries were formed since, during which times what a state is how it acts and how you manipulate it has changed vastly. There are multiple points where they could have thrown in behind the wrong power and lost influence, and I'd be surprised if some of their Pylons didn't loose power during WW2, as they back the wrong superstates.

    The other Factor is the 'Great Refusal' that was the Hegemonic Ministries Grand Failure, and the books actually talk about that as a factor more than the symbolism of the world. The Great Purge probably cost the ministry greatly both in terms of political prestige, but also probably casualties. Representatives who had been working with the Nameless orders, getting killed as the Free Council is born. Those causalities are likely from the more modern members of the Hegemonic, and it's that loss of mindset and skill that creates the possibility of the Ministry Falling.

    Mammon is a younger ministry, maybe the youngest of the 5, probably with any Archmages understanding the modern world better, it's power is likely to be more focused in the more capitalist countries which are generally on the ascent through this time period. With the great refusal they start to gain power in areas that would traditionally be Hegemonic controlled, the wars leave them coming out stronger. (The Panopticon is probably also growing and intruding into
    For all the Trump administration with it's Xenophobia and America First aspects is upholding the ideals of the Unity, that could just as easily be the success of the Chancellor (Or at least they have an easier time dealing with the erratic businessman.)

    Leave a comment:


  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post
    Now look at the 20th century - do you see explicitly religious tyranny anywhere in it? Religious faith generally was at a nadir during that century; it was dwindling as the 19th century advanced, and is reviving now, but hasn't really become a serious political force.
    It doesn't have to be explicit (most Exarchs doesn't represent outright dictatorships). It doesn't have to be a political force (although it very much still is). It only needs to be present in society for the Father and the Paternoster to flourish. Imposing injustice based on religious doctrine is something that happens globally; be it through legalism or domestically within the home. It's not as pervasive as it once was, but even today I'd consider the Father being the foremost of the Archigenitors. As I wrote in the very first reply in this thread; the Father's influence diminishing doesn't mean he's lagging behind, only that the gap between him and the others is shrinking.

    Also, the status of being an Archigenitor is based on the success of your largest Ministry. As long as the Paternoster is going strong in their endeavours they're still a major Ministry even though their (absolutely massive) arena has shrunk a little.
    On the same theme, the Hegemonic Ministry was probably heavily invested in the fascist movements, organisations and nations that arose in the 20th century. Once many of those broke apart they probably lost a lot of their influence even though new movements has arisen since then. I.e. even if Unity's influence isn't as broken as we thought back when the book was written, it doesn't mean the Hegemonic Ministry reflects that.

    Leave a comment:


  • glamourweaver
    replied
    The counter argument here is that the current surge of nationalism around the world are the death throws of the nation state before the inevitable tide of multinational corporate power - the long term tragedy being that said nationalist movements are backed by said multinational corporate powers because they don’t actually inhibit those forces but do inhibit the creation of democratic international institutions that could serve to check said corporate power.
    Last edited by glamourweaver; 01-02-2020, 02:54 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • ArcaneArts
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael Brazier View Post
    IMO the Chancellor pushing aside the Unity isn't the main error in Seers of the Throne. The real mistake is placing the Father as a major Exarch.

    See, the Unity represents fascism, straight up - the idea that a nation should place itself, entirely, into the service of a state and be organized toward a single goal. The Chancellor represents materialism, the idea that matter is the basic reality and minds a mere byproduct. And the Father represents fideism, the idea that reason is inherently corrupt and leads only to sin, and that only uncritical obedience to authority can instill virtue. Now look at the 20th century - do you see explicitly religious tyranny anywhere in it?
    Uh.

    Everywhere.

    A lot.

    Leave a comment:


  • Michael Brazier
    replied
    IMO the Chancellor pushing aside the Unity isn't the main error in Seers of the Throne. The real mistake is placing the Father as a major Exarch.

    See, the Unity represents fascism, straight up - the idea that a nation should place itself, entirely, into the service of a state and be organized toward a single goal. The Chancellor represents materialism, the idea that matter is the basic reality and minds a mere byproduct. And the Father represents fideism, the idea that reason is inherently corrupt and leads only to sin, and that only uncritical obedience to authority can instill virtue. Now look at the 20th century - do you see explicitly religious tyranny anywhere in it? Religious faith generally was at a nadir during that century; it was dwindling as the 19th century advanced, and is reviving now, but hasn't really become a serious political force. Materialism and fascism, meanwhile, were the dominant ideas of that century. Its course could be summarized, in fact, as fascism's promising to bring material abundance to the nations that accepted it, and then failing to deliver - that is, the Chancellor seated in judgement over the Unity, and finding him wanting.

    A truer allegory for recent politics would have the Unity and the Chancellor as the two premier Exarchs, dividing the world between them, and the Chancellor with the upper hand, having won a decisive victory with the Soviet Union's collapse. The Father would be, at best, a returning power, taking what opportunities he can.

    Leave a comment:


  • Leliel
    replied
    Originally posted by Spencer from The Hills View Post
    To be honest, I've never clocked any of those, can you name any examples?

    The big one that comes to mind is India when the East India Trading Company was still owning it.

    To say it was an economic disaster was putting it mildly. One of the dirty secrets about colonialism is that colonies tend to operate at monetary losses, and India's infrastructure under them was so cheap and half-assed that much of its own money was based around trying to put out the fires they themselves caused, because trying to build proper infrastructure did not lead to high profits for that year, so there was no will to do so. The Company was kept alive by regular infusions of cash from the British, not because they could support themselves from their colony.

    Leave a comment:


  • Spencer from The Hills
    replied
    Originally posted by Leliel View Post
    There's a reason corporate-run states are known to be utterly incompetent at being states.
    To be honest, I've never clocked any of those, can you name any examples?

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X