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  • underwoodfive
    started a topic Techne Examples

    Techne Examples

    Forumites!

    I'm having a little trouble wrapping my head around 2nd Edition Techne. I grok what it is in theory -- encoding Sleeper beliefs into your magic style in a way that both acts as a Yantra and draws power from people who also share that belief -- but when I tried to play it in-game, I struggled to make it work.

    I know I'm the kind of person who often learns best through examples, so can you share ways Techne was used in your games? Mages who used Techne, inventive player uses of Techne, etc.

    Thanks in advance!

  • Malus
    replied
    Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post

    Wouldn't these two cover literally every conceivable spell effect?

    Also what stops me from using a broad science based methodology, like Techne: Scientific Method or Techne: Rationality?? Given that:
    If you wanna write runes for every casting, sure.
    Good luck divining the future with it.

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  • KaiserAfini
    replied
    Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post

    Wouldn't these two cover literally every conceivable spell effect?

    Also what stops me from using a broad science based methodology, like Techne: Scientific Method or Techne: Rationality?? Given that:



    Using a broad methodology would give the best benefits, or am I mistaken?
    Pretty much, its the reason why the Free Council advovate for techne, Sleeper symbolism reinforcing Supernal Truth. So if you are a programmer, you double down on high tech tools. The mitigating factor is that its only a +1 per yantra, the plus side is that you get them consistently for focusing on your character's themes. If the cabal learn it and they also have it as a cabal theme, then it can become quite potent indeed.

    This is not only how you make the Virtual Adepts or Sons of Ether in MtAw, but every single Tradition. Its a cool merit that shows how diverse the Free Council is.
    Last edited by KaiserAfini; 09-06-2019, 08:08 PM.

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  • lbeaumanior
    replied
    I understand and using a broad Techne, or a narrow one in a creative way are both valid for the purpose of maximising utility.
    Last edited by lbeaumanior; 09-06-2019, 06:49 PM.

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  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
    I am not familiar with this idiom. What does it mean?
    A pebble is a tiny thing right? But if you look closely at it you can see a lot of details, you can even study all the amazing little details that make up its molecular and atomic composition, you can see things inside it that mirror or exemplify our world and it can produce awe. Same thing goes for if you go deep into a “narrow” Techne.

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  • lbeaumanior
    replied
    Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
    Or you could find the universe in the pebble.
    I am not familiar with this idiom. What does it mean?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    Or you could find the universe in the pebble.

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  • lbeaumanior
    replied
    Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post

    1- Algorithms: Writing down math equations on walls or using computer programs you wrote, such as simulating the effect of the spell or using a predictive algorithm to aid a divination.

    5- Special effects: Editing the spell's effect into a photo or video of the target, faking the spell's effect through mundane means (like placing solid CO2 in a bucket of water for a weather spell that summons mist), etc.
    Wouldn't these two cover literally every conceivable spell effect?

    Also what stops me from using a broad science based methodology, like Techne: Scientific Method or Techne: Rationality?? Given that:

    In order to use a Yantra, a willworker has to recognize a specific symbolism in the tool
    Using a broad methodology would give the best benefits, or am I mistaken?
    Last edited by lbeaumanior; 09-06-2019, 04:48 PM.

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  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
    I didn't describe the Diamond position.
    You basically described both in your first post since you described all Tool Yantras whose symbolism has been imbued through Sleeper culture regardless of what they are and by whom they're used.

    When you use any Tool Yantras you're invoking the symbolism inherent in those Tools. When you use Path or Order Tools you're invoking symbolism that aligns or resonates with you on a more personal level (as evidenced by other Paths or Orders not being able to use them).
    Techné is unique in that it aligns a mage specifically with a Sleeper practice. It can be something that mages also practice, but it's the fact that it's a Sleeper practice that makes it a possible Techné focus.

    When a mage invokes a regular Tool Yantra that is created by Sleepers and imbued with symbolism by Sleepers, they do evoke the spark of Truth through Sleepers but the Sleepers are almost incidental to the whole thing. The Supernal is present in everything (including Sleeper culture) so everything (including Sleeper culture) can be a tool for a mage, provided the symbolism is strong enough or they learn how to utilise that symbolism. Humanity, like everything else in the Fallen, reflects the Supernal, and those reflections can be used in order to bring forth the Supernal.
    When a mage invokes a Techné Yantra, the whole point is that they evoke the Truth from Sleepers because they believe Sleepers create their own Truth. Not only does Techné draw the Supernal from a practice that is specifically created by Sleepers, it can also draw from Sleepers directly as long as they're participating in that practice. Humanity is magic and the Supernal is a reflection of that; Techné is the art of drawing from the magic that is already present in order to bring forth the Supernal.

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  • EW-Matias
    replied
    I didn't describe the Diamond position.

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  • Michael
    replied
    What do you disagree with?

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  • EW-Matias
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael View Post

    What you're describing is how the Diamond works. The entire point of Techne is that the FC believe that Humanity generates supernal symbolism on it's own. That's why they use entire practices, not simply taking bits and pieces of different belief systems.
    Well yes, but actually no.

    The Free Council believes humanity creates new Supernal Truths, yes, but they don't deny the Lie. Just because Humanity believes something doesn't mean it hasn't been distorted and that it doesn't take Awakened understanding to discern the Truth at the center of the practice (i.e. Computer Networks don't really connect us, we are already connected, the networks just push against the Lie that we aren't). What the Free Council believes is that Humanity came up with the Steam Engine on it's own, and that now there is a Platonic Ideal of the Steam Engine in the Supernal World that wasn't there before. To a Diamond Mage, the Steam Engine was always in the Supernal and it just took time for it to filter down through the Abyss.

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  • Michael
    replied
    Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
    Techne isn't really about belief. Like all yantras, Techne is a kind of mnemonic device based on an understanding of some kernels of Supernal Truth buried deep into a Sleeper practice, be it in art, culture or science.
    What you're describing is how the Diamond works. The entire point of Techne is that the FC believe that Humanity generates supernal symbolism on it's own. That's why they use entire practices, not simply taking bits and pieces of different belief systems.

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  • KaiserAfini
    replied
    Techne is pretty broad, its all about doubling down on a specialized field and seeing your spells through its lens. Here are some examples that come to mind:

    1- Algorithms: Writing down math equations on walls or using computer programs you wrote, such as simulating the effect of the spell or using a predictive algorithm to aid a divination.

    2- Acting: wearing a costume, pretending to be the target, quoting an appropriate cliche or famous scene, etc

    3- Gastronomy: Creating flavors, smells or assembling a dish that invokes the feel of the spell

    4- Investigation: Examining a crime scene for clues, logging case data, interviewing suspects, etc.

    5- Special effects: Editing the spell's effect into a photo or video of the target, faking the spell's effect through mundane means (like placing solid CO2 in a bucket of water for a weather spell that summons mist), etc.

    Leave a comment:


  • thenate
    replied
    Some further notions:

    Psychotherapy: To use it, you would need to actually discuss things and possibly even prescribe medications to a subject, but then you could apply the symbolism to the obvious things, like adjusting memory, but also to thins like providing a person the opportunity to test themselves and improve with Fate, Help them break old connections and build new, healthier ones with Space. Life could remove a physical addiction. Death (particularly with Mind assistance) could cause a major and sudden change, possibly ending both mental and physical self destructive traits. If the patient/subject is a Sleeper and a willing participant in the process, they would provide the extra order tool option. Other mages could assist in group or with multiple sessions as different specialists, theoretically, though that would be a bit of a stretch.

    Masonry, Free or otherwise: Masons design and build and calculate the effects of sizes and things on the results. The Matter and Prime connections are mostly obvious, so I'll point out opportunities to embed a Fate into a structure or onto its owners or inhabitants. Space could define ways things intersect. You want a hidden floor in a building? Cast this while building it and use runes for good measure. Now, that would be even slower to implement, so it might be the sort of thing you'd want to run in parts. but I'd grant some leeway on timing things for major works involving loads of people coordinating.

    Boxing is the sweet science. Any martial art could qualify. This symbolism would need to qualify, so a boxer isn't going to be running up wall, but he could be shattering bone through armor or bulking up to superhuman levels. Aikidoka or Judoka with Forces would be downright frustrating to deal with. The utility of the AA's schtick would still surpass in active combat, but Assemblies would show up as extremely deadly. (Would Praetorians be able to negate that? I can see a case for both yes and no... Hmm)



    Basically, if the science (et cetera) has any real meaning, it's also got Supernal symbolism attached, even if buried under the Lie. Libertines are adept at wading in and finding it and making that useful.

    I understand it to mean that Libertines have to actually use the art symbolically in some way appropriate to how they apply it to the spell, but not that they have to directly involve the practice in any 1:1 manner. I prefer to limit it that way, but I don't think it's intended to be interpreted that way.

    That is: Searching online about a topic before casting a spell to grant knowledge of that specific topic is my preference. Performing psychotherapy on the subject of the spell as opposed to performing psycho therapy on someone and then casting on whoever you want.

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