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How do you destroy a soul?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
    The rules for sacraments implies they are physical objects of some sorte, and those are reasonable rules for dealing with objects. You might allow other things like Crafts, if you even consider using a roll at all. Souls aren't physical, and they aren't even Ephemera. They are their own kind of thing.
    This is not showing me the quote.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by White Oak Dragon View Post
      Read the comments section of an article.

      In all seriousness, I’d say it would depend on the needs of your story. Was it your players trying to destroy a soul?

      Yeah, a Slasher was after them after they got a soul jar with its soul trapped in it. The Moros thought it was a good idea to just smash the jar and then destroy the soul.

      We discussed the Sacrament thing afterwards, and figured that it made sense to destroy a soul fairly easily in that case, as you could envision the magic 'consuming' the Sacrament/soul. However the Moros wasn't using it as a Sacrament - maybe he should have haha... I can imagine ruling this as the actual 'easiest' way to destroy a soul... and alternatively, as Neos01 mentioned as an example, using an Attainment/Death 4/unravelling spell to actually just damage a soul without using it for a spell. Thanks guys.

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      • #18
        A sacrament is any Magical Tool symbolic of the spell in question
        that the mage destroys during casting. Many times — though by no
        means always — it also provides a sympathetic link to the subject
        of her spell. She may infuse bread with herbs and spices to make
        those who share the loaf work together smoothly. She may burn
        a man’s driver’s license and passport for a spell that removes him
        from government records. She may fire a male figure out of clay then
        crush it to powder when changing her body to match her gender.
        If she can find one of her enemy’s Magical Tools, she has both a
        sympathetic link and a sacrament for any spell that would hurt him.
        Some mages go further than finding or creating things to sacrifice during casting. Some engage in quests into the other realms
        of the Fallen World, leaving the flesh behind to uncover items
        with magical properties of their own. Destroying them during
        casting can make a spell flare with power. Particularly twisted
        mages kill animals and murder humans for the magical power.
        The surest way to kill a powerful enemy with magic is to sacrifice
        something close to him — a beloved pet, or a family member.
        Notice how it only talks about items, living beings, realms "beyond the flesh" which we can only assumes means ephemeral realms, like the Shadow, Astral and the Underworld. Maybe something from and Emanation. But those are all THINGS. That can be broken (or killed) by normal means. As said above, there's nothing normal about destroying a Soul.
        Last edited by EW-Matias; 08-11-2019, 06:22 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
          Notice how it only talks about items, living beings, realms "beyond the flesh" which we can only assumes means ephemeral realms, like the Shadow, Astral and the Underworld. Maybe something from and Emanation. But those are all THINGS. That can be broken (or killed) by normal means. As said above, there's nothing normal about destroying a Soul.
          A soul is a thing, and none of these examples require figuring out the Durability or Structure or making a roll of Strength + Stamina in order to destroy them. So...you still didn’t show me the quote I was asking for.

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          • #20
            So, would you just allow a character to straight up grind an ocean liner to dust with no questions asked about how and in what time frame, just because it's a sacrament for a spell?

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            • #21
              No, I’d probably end up asking a question or two because it still has to make narrative sense, but I also wouldn’t balk at a lack of rules on how to do it. If such a thing made sense between the player and I then I’d go ahead and do it. Then there would be the consequences.

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              • #22
                The fact that you have to go to such an extreme to give an example that you’d hope would give me pause though, and that you still can’t site any rules as I was requesting suggests to me that you are relying entirely on conjecture. Thus your conclusion that a soul simply can’t be consumed as a power source is as baseless as mine, but at least I have a solution that lets me actually run my game without twisting my mind into a pretzel over it.

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                • #23
                  See, but for some of us it really doesn't make sense that you would just be able to casually destroy a Soul. It's not something people can usually do, so it's not unreasonable to ask and speculate how is it even achieved.

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                  • #24
                    I’m sorry for you then. Nothing I can do to help.

                    Souls are explicitly called out as being useful sacraments. There is no rig-a-moral presented that suggests it’s difficult. So any difficulty you’re imagining is self-imposed and I can’t help you with that.
                    Last edited by Mrmdubois; 08-11-2019, 07:06 PM.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                      This is not showing me the quote.
                      Nearest thing I have to a quote is explicit statement from Matters of the Soul that mages need to use spells to interact with unattached souls; given that unattached souls show up in the Mage Sights of all the subtle Arcana and we have multiple non-Death-based Reaper Legacies established by this point in time, it may be reasonable to just interpret Touch of the Grave's "and other things in Death-attuned Twilight" to include souls but be accomplished by an Apprentice-level spell of any subtle Arcanum for that purpose.

                      Treating them as Size 1-2 objects with Durability 1 once rendered thus feels appropriate as a quick estimate, at least.


                      Resident Lore-Hound
                      Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                      • #26
                        Sure, but that's how to interact with souls and doesn't provide any actual illumination to whether or not there are any rules about how sacraments need to be destroyed in order to employ them. So, though obviously it does mean that you need to do something special to interact with souls at all (Something no one was questioning,) it doesn't really answer the actual debate of whether you need to do something special on top of that to consume a soul as a sacrament via spellcasting or not.

                        I'm going to ignore your last sentence as it's just more speculation and doesn't add anything.

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                        • #27
                          "She may infuse bread with herbs and spices to make
                          those who share the loaf work together smoothly. She may burn
                          a man’s driver’s license and passport
                          for a spell that removes him
                          from government records. She may fire a male figure out of clay then
                          crush it to powder when changing her body to match her gender."
                          (First bolded part implying eating it or at least breaking it into pieces.)

                          All of these examples are trivially easy (if you have the right tools, at least) and thus does not warrant rolls, but it's obvious that they are physical actions carried out by the mage. Things that are less than trivially easy to break should warrant a roll if it's done under the pressure of time or if it's not certain the character can break the object at all, in which case the character would in most cases roll Strength+Stamina (the common roll for destroying an object, but other rolls could be more fitting depending on situation), reduce the number of successes by the object's Durability, and apply the remaining successes as damage on its Structure, as is the rules for destroying objects. Living Sacraments could instead be "destroyed" through the whole violence subsystem.

                          Using a loaf of bread as a sacramant doesn't automatically make a group of people having shared it without them physically receiving and eating it. That just makes no sense even for Mage.


                          Bloodline: The Stygians
                          Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                          Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
                            I'm going to ignore your last sentence as it's just more speculation and doesn't add anything.
                            It's speculation based on the Size limits of soul stones and the literal text of Touch of the Grave, which is the nearest thing we have to an explicitly published spell for the purposes of interacting with souls.


                            Resident Lore-Hound
                            Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                              It's speculation based on the Size limits of soul stones and the literal text of Touch of the Grave, which is the nearest thing we have to an explicitly published spell for the purposes of interacting with souls.
                              Touch of the Grave works on everything in the Death-attuned Twilight such as ghosts, but souls are not in the same "frequency" of Twilight as ghosts.


                              Bloodline: The Stygians
                              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                              • #30
                                Tessie There's no indication there though that destroying a soul via consuming it to power a spell isn't also trivially easy.

                                Satchel Soul stones and souls aren't the same thing though, soul stones are made of potential Gnosis which acts as an insulator for the soul of a Mage hence why it's more difficult to remove a Mage's soul. Still, it's close enough for government work if you really feel it's needed I guess. I don't though.

                                Tessie, removed souls are on the same frequency of Twilight as ghosts, that's why Death can be used to perceive, study and manipulate them, and why they're never mentioned as having their own frequency of Twilight.

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