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How do you destroy a soul?

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  • #31
    " She can bolster a soul, restore pleasure to a
    ghost, and reverse the effects of aging just as well as she can destroy
    souls, rip ghosts from anchors, and steal the life from another."
    Mage Awakening, pg 128.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
      Tessie There's no indication there though that destroying a soul via consuming it to power a spell isn't also trivially easy.
      The fact that it's insubstantial and not possible to manipulate without magic already means it's not trivially easy. Mages have no described innate abilities for destroying a soul at will, nor can it be considered trivial if it requires a spell since most mages won't have even the first dot in any given Arcanum.
      Not that it matters because my entire grievance is that it's not described, not how difficult it might be to do. How do you consume the soul in order to make it function as a Sacrament?, is what I'm asking for.
      The Throne did find one way it can work, but it would have to be set up in a very roundabout or specific way unless it's possible to cast the Death spell to destroy the soul while in the process of casting the spell you wish to bolster with the soul as a sacrament.

      Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
      Tessie, removed souls are on the same frequency of Twilight as ghosts, that's why Death can be used to perceive, study and manipulate them, and why they're never mentioned as having their own frequency of Twilight.
      "Souls are insubstantial constructs, wholly invisible except to Death Sight when properly integrated into a person, and visible as vague humanoid auras in the Mage Sight of the five subtle Arcana when removed from a host. They are clearest when viewed under magic that reveals subjects in Twilight resonating with Death (such as the Death 2 Attainment), but are not made of ephemera, so remain insubstantial to ephemeral beings unless they have Numina or Influences allowing them to manipulate souls."

      Death Sight merely increase the clarity of viewing independent souls in Twilight, but unlike ghosts they are visible to all five subtle Arcana and they're also not made from ghostly ephemera (which is how Twilight "frequencies" are defined in the first place). It does say that Death Sight alone can see integrated souls, but the actual text for Death Sight instead implies it only sees the soul indirectly, whether or not someone have an integrated soul, rather than actually seeing inside the person and looking directly at the soul.
      Eyes of the Dead does say it can perceive both ghosts and souls, but doesn't say they're part of the same Twilight frequency. One way of thinking of that Attainment is that it shows you everything in Twilight that relates to Death rather than showing you everything in a singular Death-Twilight.


      Bloodline: The Stygians
      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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      • #33
        I would also mention that what The Throne posted is brief a description of the entire Death Arcanum, but none of the spells described in that chapter can destroy a Soul. An Unmaking spell is the obvious way, but that leaves unanswered questions: should the spell be Withstood? By which traits? You could make a case for either Resolve, Composure, Integrity or Willpower or even other traits or combinations. Are Awakened Souls tougher? How much so? Also, Soul creation is explicitly called out as requiring all five subtle Arcana, you could also make a case for requiring them too to destroy one, even if at a reduced level.

        Anyone of us can adjudicate all of this in our own games with our own groups, yes, but that doesn't mean asking others what are their thoughts on the matter is such a preposterous notion as some are making it out to be.

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        • #34
          There is another question too: how much die bonus? 2? 3?
          Or another type of benefit, as a rote action? An Awakened Soul shoul be stronger than a Sleeper Soul. A Sleepwalker soul?
          Question and more question...

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          • #35
            From dark eras:
            Fourth: Liberate SoulPrerequisites: Death 4, Empathy 4You may obliterate a Sleeping soul. It crumbles before the undisguised presence of ultimate reality. If the soul doesn’t reside within its true owner, this is automatically successful. Against a Sleeper, this functions as Yoke the Sleeping Soul would except that success doesn’t seize the soul, but destroys it (or so the Nagaraja believe). This subjects a Sleeper to such trauma that the victim’s player rolls Resolve + Composure twice to determine the extent to which her innermost self has been annihilated. The victim’s Integrity changes to the lower of the first roll or her current rating. The victim’s Willpower dots become the lower of the second roll or her current rating. If these new ratings would equate to advanced stages of soul loss, the character acquires the appropriate Conditions: Enervated at Integrity 1, and Thrall at 0 Willpower dots.This Attainment requires one point of Mana to activate and doesn’t function on the Awakened or beings with major supernatural templates. The Storyteller can allow or deny its use against others on a case by case basis.

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            • #36
              iirc, some more rules on how souls and magic interact will be in the new Night Horrors book because of the Reapers and Tremere featuring in it.


              Genius templates (for Demon: the Descent)

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              • #37
                Oh, and also
                Reaping Relinquishment (Death •••)
                From sign of sorcery, can destroy a soul

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                • #38
                  Reaping Relinquishment specifically says "the next time the subject of this spell destroys a soul — either in her power through a different Death spell or contained in a Soul Jar" which in part prompted this discussion. What does that mean? Does destroying a Soul Jar destroy a soul inside?

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
                    Does destroying a Soul Jar destroy a soul inside?
                    It explicitly does not according to the Soul Jar spell.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                    • #40
                      I destroy a soul by casting a spell that uses it or a spell that does so or by feeding it to a weird gribbly. I think if you need concrete rules for it having ephemeral Structure and Durability and what Conjunctional Arcana you require to effect this and how many Soul Health Levels it possesses, you're looking at it from the wrong angle and--more importantly--missing the point.

                      Souls are there to be a powerful thing Mages can use with relative ease (Soul Jar is, after all, only Death 2), is plentiful, but is also the ultimate taboo because, I mean, you're destroying a soul. It exists as a temptation, or something to be horrified by, or both, depending on the character. There's not some canon printed description on how to hurt them, because mechanizing that is left for if tables want to, like it doesn't have rules for the possibility of strange personality after-effects of swapping souls.


                      Come visit our unofficial Mage: the Awakening Discord Server!
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                      • #41
                        I don't think it's really fair to say we are missing the point by thinking souls should be a big deal, mechanically speaking. After all, you could say that of every mechanical concern. but we still have more concrete rules for a lot of stuff of much lesser narrative and metaphysical weight.

                        To me it doesn't really make sense to just, snap of a finger, you destroy a soul to fuel any old spell, just like that. I think destroying a soul should be a magical feat as of itself, or an integral part of the desired effect: I destroy your soul in the process of assuming your identity, or stealing all your good fortune, or extending my life span. "I destroy your soul by vague and unspecified means to cast Withering" doesn't feel right to me.

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                        • #42
                          You are missing the point if you're trying to argue how your preferred way of handling it should be enshrined in the canon and picking through single-sentence fragments in multiple books to try and claim it is. Especially if you're doing it in a contest where parties keep trying to out-pedant each other by writing increasingly-long screeds on how they're right.

                          You guys want more rules for souls? All means, write up some homebrew detailing how that might work. People will very likely make use of it and appreciate having it. It would be a good thing; hell, I'd add it to the server homebrew archive because I know some folks who'd love it. Attempting to extrapolate out "it must be harder than it's presented as being" as if trying to divine some hidden special rules and canon to validate it is just kind of weirdly competitive and results in nothing as all parties hit a bedrock of trying to argue their preferences as facts when ultimately ease or lack thereof will be a consideration of the table.


                          Come visit our unofficial Mage: the Awakening Discord Server!
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                          • #43
                            My 20 cents: the real problem is the lack of rule over the soul-as-sacrament etc.
                            Mage is amazing, very complex and... some cluster of rule are absent from our grasp...

                            In the core, we had supernal summoning...but no idea of the power and benefit for this ( before Signs of Sorcery, of course).
                            It give you a teaser as "rule for the game"... but without the rule or idea of the benefit. Lack of space? Ok...but!
                            " Supernal entity, after the trials, can grant one benefit, among one or more "Boon", that are not spell but power linked to their theme", is one/two row.

                            With the Soul-as-sacrament, we are again in the bad spot.

                            The book and the writer were awesome! I repeat: AWESOME...but it is not "optimal on all aspects".
                            Last edited by The Throne; 08-13-2019, 06:24 PM.

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                            • #44
                              No one is divining any hidden rules or trying to enshrine anything as cannon, if anything, people saying that since there are no rules it must be trivially easy are the one's doing that. As I said above, when the game leaves things vague and up for each ST to handle as they see it there's nothing wrong in asking others their thoughts on the matter. But instead of doing that, somehow the discussion devolved on whether or not the question is valid in the first place.

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                              • #45
                                Maybe expose the Soul (Jar) to something Unclean? I mean, you usually destroy Sacraments by what amounts to either a killing blow on a (small, low durability) object or exposure to something (like fire) that does the damage for you.
                                Last edited by Tambov; 08-15-2019, 01:47 PM. Reason: typo


                                Simurgh, Mysterium Thyrsus in Mountains of Shadow (IC|OOC)

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