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The Vampiric body - a great mystery

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  • Emerus
    started a topic The Vampiric body - a great mystery

    The Vampiric body - a great mystery

    Hello there.

    I've been wondering. What Arcana would a Mage need to use to affect a Vampire's body? Death comes to mind of course, since Vampires are technically undead (are they though?)
    But say the mage in question wanted to transform a Vampire's body. Would this fall under the purview of the Life Arcanum (since a body - vampiric or not - is considered organic matter) or the Matter Arcanum (since the vampiric body is dead and therefore it is considered inert matter and thus is unrelated to Life magic). Or would both need to be used, in addition to Death? It's all very confusing to me, and i suspect there might be many different cases. Can somebody help?

  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    Didn't say I wasn't interested. I said you're wrong. I also said I didn't have to elaborate because you've already been told in adequate detail why you're wrong.

    Leave a comment:


  • EW-Matias
    replied
    But that's the thing, I'm not wrong. You don't have to expend any energy arguing with me at all if you are not interested, but that would mean not engaging at all. You want to not engage and have your opinion validated at the same time, and it doesn't work like that.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    I'm not dismissive, I simply don't need to expend a lot of energy on the conversation. Tessie already informed you that you're wrong, and how. I agreed with them. That's it. If you want to get butt hurt about it that's your own business, but don't make it out like I attacked you when I didn't.

    Leave a comment:


  • EW-Matias
    replied
    I'm just saying that what you are stating as a matter of fact is as much interpretation as mine, I have explained why it doesn't make sense to me. As is always the case, we can agree to disagree. But there's no need for you to be so dismissive of people you disagree with, Because you are not even arguing, you are just telling me to shut up and it's really rude.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
    My point was that Deny the Reaper is the only spell that does something of the sort and it is an Unmaking spell and if that's the route we are going then it's a whole different discussion. Like, can you return a slain vampire to un-life? I don't know, maybe? If so, yeah, closing wounds is small potatoes, but we are talking a whole different level of magic.
    No, you’re being obtuse. Tessie has the right of it.

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  • EW-Matias
    replied
    My point was that Deny the Reaper is the only spell that does something of the sort and it is an Unmaking spell and if that's the route we are going then it's a whole different discussion. Like, can you return a slain vampire to un-life? I don't know, maybe? If so, yeah, closing wounds is small potatoes, but we are talking a whole different level of magic.

    Leave a comment:


  • Tessie
    replied
    You're right about preserving a corpse.
    As for restoring one, that should still be Perfecting. Deny the Reaper Unmakes entropy and decay that has befallen the subject. It's the entropy and decay itself that is directly affected by the spell, leaving it possible for anything to be a subject. What I'm suggesting is that the corpse is what's directly affected, restoring it to a more ideal form of a corpse. In practice this will be by reversing decay (and other damages) but how the spell does so is different and should fall under a different Practice than Deny the Reaper.

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  • EW-Matias
    replied
    Originally posted by Tessie View Post

    It really depends on how you design the spell. You can perfect a corpse to preserve it or restore it (keeping it from becoming matter that no longer counts as a corpse), or you can perfect a corpse through the stages of death (pallor mortis, algor mortis, etc, and finally decomposition). Two different and opposite uses of the Perfecting Practice.
    Preserving a corpse would be Shielding, not Perfecting. Most Death effects can't undo the effects of entropy and decay, doing that is explicitly stated as an Unmaking spell (Deny The Reaper).

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  • QuickAndDirty
    replied
    I think to answer the question of the purview arcana of a Vampire's body, we need to know what happens when a Vampire receives the kiss.
    The Strix are entities from from a realm of the lower depths that is lacking Live,
    and Strix seemingly can create Vampires of any clan.

    Can a Vampire be a corpse possesed by a beeing(the Beast) from he lower depths that is missing some aspects of full existance?
    Does a Vampire have a soul and an Oneiros?

    Leave a comment:


  • Tessie
    replied
    Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
    Because Ghosts are made of ephemera, and messing with them is explicitly the purview of the Death Arcanum. A Ghost with a damaged Corpus is less of itself than a Ghost with full Corpus. Perfecting it should repair it. A Vampire is undead, a corpse that doesn't really behave like a corpse. Making it more like a corpse wouldn't close it's wounds, kind of the opposite.
    It really depends on how you design the spell. You can perfect a corpse to preserve it or restore it (keeping it from becoming matter that no longer counts as a corpse), or you can perfect a corpse through the stages of death (pallor mortis, algor mortis, etc, and finally decomposition). Two different and opposite uses of the Perfecting Practice.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    Did you seriously just try to drag this conversation out by implying that vampires are -not- magical? The Embrace is about as magical as you can get. Vampires are undead because they’re because they’re magical moving corpses.

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  • Emerus
    replied
    The thing is, can we for sure say that a Vampire is a dead body?
    Sure, a vampire is undead, but unlike a zombie, which is a dead corpse moving through magic, the vampire has gone through a huge transformation at the moment of the Embrace. At this point, its more than a moving corpse. It's an entirely different creature. Sure, it registers as a corpse because it doesn't have a heartbeat and its touch is cold and its internal organs have withered away, but its body doesn't function like a dead body at all and it can even force a big part of its body to function like a living body through the use of Blush of Life. So, I'm not sure we can just call it a corpse, and that is why I am hesitant to say that a simple Death Patterning spell (without the inclusion of other Arcana) can heal a body that is not entirely dead, but has its own functions and energy source (Vitae). I think we all agree at this point that Death Magic needs to be used because of a Vampire's undead nature, but the question is whether we can treat it as a simple corpse or not.

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  • milo v3
    replied
    Originally posted by EW-Matias View Post
    Where does it say zombies can be healed by Death alone?
    They're under the purview of death, so you can death perfecting it. Simple as that.

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  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    Might be remembering a thing from 1e, but whatever it’d still hold up in 2E. Make this zombie stronger or healed, or make this vampire stronger or healed is basically the same.

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