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  • #31
    Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
    So these Sleepers are aware they work with magical people? Even then, they certainly arent the majority of humanity, correct?
    Follow-up much-belated, but the relevant bit is in the "Supporting Cast" Open Development blog entry for 2e:

    What I must reiterate, though, is that the Sleeper’s belief or non-belief in magic has absolutely nothing to do with whether their souls are injured by witnessing spells, and the Orders employ hundreds of staff who know that they work for mages, and that mages exist, but can’t be allowed to actually see any magic for their own safety. Such is the Curse, forever cutting the Awakened off from their own species.

    Well, not quite completely cutting them off.


    Resident Lore-Hound
    Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Satchel View Post
      Follow-up much-belated, but the relevant bit is in http://theonyxpath.com/supporting-cast-mage-the-awakening/"]the "Supporting Cast" Open Development blog entry for 2e[/URL]:
      Unexpected, but thanks! I guess I wasnt very clear though, what I meant was humanity as a whole, not the majority of Sleepers who work with Mages.

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      • #33
        Ok, so. Here's something I can't quite grasp.

        Paradox sets in when a Sleeper witnesses the obvious effect of supernal magic on the fallen world. It allows the abyssal taint in their soul to lash out at the cosmic truths that the sleeper does not understand.

        But if the Sleeper isn't exposed to these cosmic truths in the first place, Paradox doesn't occur, which is why you're allowed to lightning-blast people on a dark, stormy night, but not in broad clear daylight.

        So what prevents a Mage from using magic to mimic the effects of a different supernatural in order to boggle sleepers who know about them? Why does that cause Paradox anyways?

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        • #34
          Originally posted by jollycooperative View Post
          So what prevents a Mage from using magic to mimic the effects of a different supernatural in order to boggle sleepers who know about them? Why does that cause Paradox anyways?
          Because it's still a Supernal spell even if it looks like a different supernatural effect that the Sleeper knows of. If you know it's not possible without magic, you trip into the well of impossibility that is the Abyss trying to recognize the extra-strength concentrated Magic that is Supernal power.


          Resident Lore-Hound
          Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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          • #35
            It's interaction with the soul, not the cognition of the soul, as an idle shorthand.


            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
            Feminine pronouns, please.

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            • #36
              I've actually experimented with this in a number of games. World where sleepers are conscious of the supernatural, but Quiessence still mechanically applies. In this world, Sleepers sometimes approach the Wise to ask for favors: curses removed, sickness healed, warding from spirits. They ask for these things and offer some kind of payment to the Mage, and yet they cannot witness the Magic. Mages know Sleeper witness summon the abyss and endangers their sanity. So they work behind closed doors, in spaces unseen.

              One of my settings where this idea was used I called Mage 2010, and every Sleeper that survived an experience with the supernatural there had a small chance to become a hunter. So, even if vampires did show themselves and fed on anyone openly, there was like a 10% chance that any Sleeper watching would become a Hunter bent on killing vampires. So, in effect most supernaturals of great power and influence still operated from the Shadows, avoiding attention. Newbies weren't as careful and often where attacked by Hunters.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                "The spell must be clearly, openly supernatural in effect, and the Sleeper must be both conscious and cognizant of the magic’s impossibility."
                p.298

                Hence, if it doesn't look supernatural it's totally fine.
                I also play in a homebrew setting, that strictly speaking is not WoD, though I did import Mage and Changeling (1E) to it. I still use a something that works on this same principle of Disbelief. That said, I nuked the Orders and removed their society, also doing away with the Exarchs. Most mages were destroyed in WWII, fighting the equivalent of the Seers of the Throne and the Scelesti, ultimately winning, but achieving a bitter and Phyrrhic victory in the end. In the current setting, they're extremely, extremely rare, and represent the last remains of High Magick in the world. That's not to say there isn't a vast number of Witches, Sorcerers and other Magicians in the world, drawing some form of power from a wide assortment of magical traditions. This is pretty much 1E's Fallen Magic. It doesn't have any of the problems of Supernal Magick, and is easier to learn and master, but any actual Magus with much in the way of Prime, can absolutely ROFLstomp one. The most powerful Pyromancer on the planet can't directly harm a Mage with Forces 2, (though melting a support beam above his head or the floor under his feet might work.)

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