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  • 1st edition effects using the 2nd edition mechanics?

    Hi there.
    Sinse the devs decided to return to oWoD-practice (no crossover, every splat exists on its own term), I try to collect them in some "united" universe for myself.
    The problem is the 2.0 Mages seems to be leagues above all other splats (with possible exception of Demons and "fresh" Mummies). My problem is I'd personally prefer some more grounded Mages a-la Dresden Files, able to work on equal terms with other gamelines. On the other hand d, I'd prefer the mechanics of 2nd edition the the 1st one almost in any other aspect.
    So, is it possible to applay powerlevel and exact effects of 1st edition using basic gamemechanic of the 2nd ed?

  • #2
    Originally posted by Lashet View Post
    Sinse the devs decided to return to oWoD-practice (no crossover, every splat exists on its own term)
    That would make launching a Kickstarter for a big Contagion Chronicle hardback about second edition crossover a real confusing move.

    If you're looking to balance the personal capabilities of a mage character to that of a character of another template with comparable experience... well, I've got bad news for you about how first edition mages compare with first edition werewolves or changelings.

    I could write a whole lot more words than are helpful to explain why, but the short of it is if you want a wizard on an even playing field with a vampire or a deviant, it's not going to be an Awakening wizard, but a very different kind of wizard. You could look into something based on the gutter magic from Witch Finders, perhaps.

    If you're just looking for compatible rules, the 2e templates are all compatible. No rules outright break when you run them together. If you run a wizard and a deviant together then no, they're not balanced against one another and the one player character will have way more options to tackle a problem from different sides and fewer chains weighing her down.

    But the same thing happens when you run a 1e wizard and a frankenstein together.

    (I've played the frankenstein in that group before, by the way. I had fun and fondly remember that character but eventually retired him. It wasn't really "imbalance" that was the problem, though.)

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post

      That would make launching a Kickstarter for a big Contagion Chronicle hardback about second edition crossover a real confusing move.

      If you're looking to balance the personal capabilities of a mage character to that of a character of another template with comparable experience... well, I've got bad news for you about how first edition mages compare with first edition werewolves or changelings.

      I could write a whole lot more words than are helpful to explain why, but the short of it is if you want a wizard on an even playing field with a vampire or a deviant, it's not going to be an Awakening wizard, but a very different kind of wizard. You could look into something based on the gutter magic from Witch Finders, perhaps.
      You seems not to get the point. Will mage with abilities and powers of 1st edition be 'balanced' for vampires and werewolves of the 2nd one?

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      • #4
        No, they won’t.


        Writer. Developer. World of Darkness | Chronicles of Darkness | The Trinity Continuum

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Bunyip View Post
          No, they won’t.
          Why? They are too strong?

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Lashet View Post
            Hi there.
            Sinse the devs decided to return to oWoD-practice (no crossover, every splat exists on its own term), I try to collect them in some "united" universe for myself.
            What now? How is second edition, with Beast: The Primordial, Dark Eras, Dark Eras Companion, Contagion Chronicle and Dark Eras 2, all products that assume that the world is populated by all the different splats and has content geared directly for crossovers, less crossover friendly than first edition?


            Bloodline: The Stygians
            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Tessie View Post

              What now? How is second edition, with Beast: The Primordial, Dark Eras, Dark Eras Companion, Contagion Chronicle and Dark Eras 2, all products that assume that the world is populated by all the different splats and has content geared directly for crossovers, less crossover friendly than first edition?
              It doesn't have metaplot (which is not that bad as is) or some detailed guides like 1st Ed Chicago. With NPCs and themes.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Lashet View Post

                Why? They are too strong?
                They use completely different systems. While concepts from 1st and 2nd could work together, the actual base unified mechanics are pretty different. Also, mages in 1st edition are, in some ways, a lot less balanced than mages from 2nd. Mages in 2nd edition can't perform a ritual spell for a few days to cast world wide spell effects.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Lashet View Post
                  Hi there.
                  Sinse the devs decided to return to oWoD-practice (no crossover, every splat exists on its own term), I try to collect them in some "united" universe for myself.
                  This is objectively false. Not only is there the upcoming Contagion Chronicle and Beast: the Primordial, the introduction of the Clash of Wills mechanic makes adjudicating across lines easier than ever.

                  The problem is the 2.0 Mages seems to be leagues above all other splats (with possible exception of Demons and "fresh" Mummies).
                  1e Mages were leagues above almost everyone else. While Mages got a "power boost" moving to 2e, so did all the other supernaturals, and for most it was a larger boost, relatively speaking; meaning that, e.g., 2e Vampires are closer in power to 2e Mages than 1e Vampires to 1e Mages.

                  Demon: the Descent Demons are part of the "2e" group, not 1e, so that comparison is pointless.

                  My problem is I'd personally prefer some more grounded Mages a-la Dresden Files, able to work on equal terms with other gamelines.
                  Dresden Files where a low to mid power Wizard consistently goes toe-to-toe with the most powerful forces in the world and comes out on top? That's your baseline for "equal terms"?

                  Wizards are consistently shown to be far more powerful and versatile than all but gods and faerie queens, with whom they are on equal footing.

                  On the other hand d, I'd prefer the mechanics of 2nd edition the the 1st one almost in any other aspect.
                  So, is it possible to applay powerlevel and exact effects of 1st edition using basic gamemechanic of the 2nd ed?
                  I don't know what you mean by "exact effects of 1st edition," but since the power level comes from the mechanics, and your basic premise is outright wrong, I'm going to say "no."
                  Last edited by proindrakenzol; 08-03-2020, 05:27 PM.


                  Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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                  • #10
                    Since the point of the game isn't stated anywhere to be a kind of competition between supernatural types, balance is not even a relevant question. This is not a fighting game where you expect all the character options to be somewhat balanced (and even in those games characters are not usually balanced anyways despite the best attempts of the creators). In my games Mages tend to overpower most other characters because, spoiler alert: Mages can rewind time. Not to mention Space 3: Ban tends to be super deadly to Vampires when used correctly... So basically the Vampires in my games when they know they are going to have to go against any sort of wizard.. they just go all in, for the overkill. Activate Celerity, pump yourself with Vitae, go for the one-shot kill and make sure you leave no survivors! In general, this sort of all-in attitude from Vampires makes it so Mages don't want to gamble their quest for Ascencion by antagonzing them...

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                    • #11
                      It also depends on the conditions. Sure, a mage can use scry and die from a hyper fortified Sanctum, but are they checking their food and water to not be contaminated?

                      They can have a ton of imbued items, mana bateries, fetishes, enhanced items and items with a person size AoE cast on them. However, do they have time to equip them? Can they go all out or are there enough Sleepers to make Paradox and Dissonance a nightmare?

                      The key is to figure out what specialties your targets focus on, what areas they are deficient in, how their networking functions, what behavioral patterns they follow and which traumas they have. Once you do, they can be exploited. This way you can turn their strength to your purposes or, if needed, terminate them by disturbing their flow and setting yours.

                      In the end all supernatural targets are vulnerable to this. The strength and weakness of each splat only serve to guide the broad strokes of the approach. But ultimately its all about the details.


                      New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                      The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                      The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                      • #12
                        You can do crossover but crossover was never intended to be balanced against each other. It is just the exploration of how some things interact. The clash of wills system is a whole developed to simplify and give a standard to approach to crossover interactions

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Stupid Loserman View Post

                          I could write a whole lot more words than are helpful to explain why, but the short of it is if you want a wizard on an even playing field with a vampire or a deviant, it's not going to be an Awakening wizard, but a very different kind of wizard. You could look into something based on the gutter magic from Witch Finders, perhaps.
                          Second Sight from 1E also gave some options for a more balanced kind of magician than a full Awakened Mage.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Van Owen View Post
                            Second Sight from 1E also gave some options for a more balanced kind of magician than a full Awakened Mage.
                            I doubt that. As far as I can see, Thaumaturges are going to be massively outgunned by basically any other major supernatural. You're just reversing the problem.


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Michael View Post

                              I doubt that. As far as I can see, Thaumaturges are going to be massively outgunned by basically any other major supernatural. You're just reversing the problem.
                              If memory serves, there are some are some things you can do with some of the suggestions there to make a pretty powerful character. It really depends on your party, though. If you have a mixed party of Hunters, and Changelings, and maybe a Vampire who isn't min-maxed to the hilt, a Thaumaturge fits in just fine. I recall a suggestion for one variety of them was allowing them to buy Mage Rotes individually, or just allowing them access for all the Rotes of a single Arcana, as they paid for ranks in it. I actually played a shaman based on Shinto traditions with that setup, and he worked out great, particularly as he had some merits from Book of Spirits. Because I technically wasn't using Supernal Magick, I didn't have have to worry about all the hassles and complications of it. With the stuff in there, you can easily make a perfectly workable D&D type wizard that won't make the rest of the party feel redundant the way a full blown Magister does. In my current campaign, Mages are rare as hens teeth, but it's chock full of Thaumaturges of different sorts, which are usually just called Witches or Sorcerers to distinguish them from their betters.

                              Mind you, that we nuked Mage getting rid of the Pentacle Orders, Exarchs, and Seers of the Throne. The Abyss is still there, though we primarily run it off of Disbelief of mortals being the trigger of Paradox. Mages are very secretive and more or less run off a master and apprentice model. We wanted a tone a bit more like Harry Dresden as opposed to all the baggage in the books. At the moment, save for one retired Archmagus NPC, who serves as the lorekeeper for the setting, there aren't any active Mage characters, though there is at least one school for Thaumaturges that has acquired the (rather unwanted) nickname of "Creepy ass Hogwarts." It's a very exclusive East Coast type private school mostly catering to scions of old New England money who happen to be gifted in the arts. We use Mount Holyoke College as the model and for campus maps. Despite the nickname, the actual school draws far more inspiration from Miskatonic University than anything else, and the course structure a mix of mundane and magical.

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