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  • #16
    I think the number of mages able to recognize the iconography of Mordred offhand is vanishingly small. Like, it's probably easier to look at the Aeon of Fate to see what Mordred should look like than to learn what Mordred should look like to anticipate the Aeon of Fate's appearance.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by galivet View Post
      I think the number of mages able to recognize the iconography of Mordred offhand is vanishingly small. Like, it's probably easier to look at the Aeon of Fate to see what Mordred should look like than to learn what Mordred should look like to anticipate the Aeon of Fate's appearance.
      Arthurian Mythos is popular and recursive worldwide. It has been reinterpreted across countless cultures, and is, across those cultures, among some of the first things their youth learns about, even as an abstract rather than any particular story collection.

      If you're talking about an exact look for Mordred...that's sort of missing the point. People have the Idea of Mordred, they have a Mordred in their head. It is this Archetype that the Aeon of Fate is now branded with and plays to. Even a person who only has a passing knowledge of the Camelot story is not going to have to look around the fallen tree trying to discern which one is Mordred-it will be the one that looks the most Mordred-esque.

      Now, Typhon and Echidna, on the other hand...
      Last edited by ArcaneArts; 09-16-2020, 07:15 AM.


      Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
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      Feminine pronouns, please.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ArcaneArts View Post
        Arthurian Mythos is popular and recursive worldwide. It has been reinterpreted across countless cultures, and is, across those cultures, among some of the first things their youth learns about, even as an abstract rather than any particular story collection.

        If you're talking about an exact look for Mordred...that's sort of missing the point. People have the Idea of Mordred, they have a Mordred in their head. It is this Archetype that the Aeon of Fate is now branded with and plays to. Even a person who only has a passing knowledge of the Camelot story is not going to have to look around the fallen tree trying to discern which one is Mordred-it will be the one that looks the most Mordred-esque.

        Now, Typhon and Echidna, on the other hand...

        Takeuchi Takashi's new goal: make every Aeon a Saber clone.


        Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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        • #19
          Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post


          Takeuchi Takashi's new goal: make every Aeon a Saber clone.
          You have no idea how hard I worked to not make this joke in the morning. Someone had to, though.


          Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
          The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
          Feminine pronouns, please.

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          • #20
            So are the Aeons considered "lesser" than the supernal? Is the main differentiation between them and the supernal the fact they are influenced by how the world sees them, rather than being platonic incarnations of the Arcana?

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
              So are the Aeons considered "lesser" than the supernal?
              The Aeons are Phenomenal. If you consider anything phenomenal "lesser" than the Supernal, than sure, but that's not the only way to view it.

              Is the main differentiation between them and the supernal the fact they are influenced by how the world sees them, rather than being platonic incarnations of the Arcana?
              From the perspective of a normal Mage, yes.


              Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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              • #22
                Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

                The Aeons are Phenomenal. If you consider anything phenomenal "lesser" than the Supernal, than sure, but that's not the only way to view it.



                From the perspective of a normal Mage, yes.
                I meant lesser in Mage cosmology lol. It's cool to know that other occult environments can hold the power of Arcana

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Primordial newcomer View Post
                  I meant lesser in Mage cosmology lol. It's cool to know that other occult environments can hold the power of Arcana
                  Define lesser. Also, Pangaeans also had Arcana.


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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                    Define lesser. Also, Pangaeans also had Arcana.
                    Lesser as in "impressive, but flawed from its separation from the supernal" from a Mages perspective

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                    • #25
                      Merlin is a source of confusion for me. You guys went on about how clever and successful he was in making his final Omen the fall of a utopia. There was a discussion on another thread on how it was a jerk-ass and stupid thing to do and resulted in making the Aeon of Fate evil. My question is where the original information can be found and why the final Omen was so destructive? In what way is becoming the platonic form of the fall of civilizations a "win" for the Silver Ladder?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Excess View Post
                        Merlin is a source of confusion for me. You guys went on about how clever and successful he was in making his final Omen the fall of a utopia. There was a discussion on another thread on how it was a jerk-ass and stupid thing to do and resulted in making the Aeon of Fate evil.
                        It was the kind of dick move that one expects of mages, whose propensity for tunnel vision is well-documented, and especially archmages, who literally chose their grand-scale cosmic Obsessions over any Exarchal threats and you-have-a-home-here temptations that preceded their challenging the Godhead to live inside their own souls while they try to expand their beachhead into Heaven.

                        Myrddin made it so that his ascent to divinity exploited the symbolism of the Architects of the Lie and stamped his druidic background's iconography into the Path he walked to get there. A peripheral result was that the Fallen World's vision of What Fate Is, who has never been particularly well-contained, saw one of the agents of Camelot's destruction, went, "Nice!" and adopted the form of Medraut for a significant portion of its social visits thereafter.

                        My question is where the original information can be found and why the final Omen was so destructive?
                        Dave Brookshaw runs through the book list here and here and here:

                        Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                        Yeah, so the Camelot story is spread out across the whole game line - you're looking for one-page (often just one-paragraph) mentions in the first edition Mage corebook, Tome of the Watchtowers, Tome of the Mysteries, Astral Realms, Silver Ladder, Left Hand Path, Imperial Mysteries, the second edition corebook, and Signs of Sorcery. So far.
                        Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                        The Arthurian World did exist (in some form, it was probably closer to earlier Dark Ages, Arthur laughing as he wrestles bears and smites men versions than after it got lancelotted and romantic fantasied) sometime in post-Roman Britain. It was the pet project of a welsh Silver Ladder Acanthus (and either the founder of or an early member of the Walkers in Mists Legacy) with the Shadow Name of Myrddin (or, in English, Merlin). He achieved archmastery, and his Noumenon, the great act of magic that made him Ascend, was to manipulate Fate to great and then doom the society he built, marking the Symbolism of Arcadia forever. Among the side effects was turning the astral anthropomorphism of Fate into Mordred.

                        Then the Arcadian Exarchs deleted the whole thing from the timeline, and history became as we know it. Myrddin, safely Ascended as the very symbol of a cunning bastard, gave no shits.

                        Tldr - it is a longstanding setting element of Mage, since Tome of the Watchtowers nearly ten years ago, that Merlin was a real mage, that the crystal cave was what he *wanted* (his ascension) and the fall of Camelot was entirely deliberate on his part.
                        Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                        But yes, Myrddin's archfuckery has been a running thread for the 12 years of Awakening as a gameline, first mentioned in the 1e corebook last mentioned in Signs of Sorcery. Myrddin Emrys was a Welsh (from the Druidic traditions of North Wales) Silver Ladder Acanthus who became an archmaster of Fate and deliberately smashed the Utopia he created to Ascend. He left an Ananke called Nimue who's still programmed to destroy Camelot, the Aeon we're talking about, and a Snowdonian landscape riddled with portals and thin spots to his old Chantry.
                        In what way is becoming the platonic form of the fall of civilizations a "win" for the Silver Ladder?
                        He didn't, as mentioned above (the Ruin already existed). It's not a win for the Silver Ladder, it's a win for Myrddin, who, regardless of what petty tantrums (like erasing Camelot from history) the Exarchs throw, is Ascended and cannot be un-Ascended. It is a tremendous "Fuck you, got mine" on his part.
                        Last edited by Satchel; 09-28-2020, 09:57 AM. Reason: One more link.


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                        • #27
                          Under that lens, it shows how incredibly close it is to what a Seer would hope to do, he used the Exarch's power to facilitate his Ascension. But unlike the Seers, he did so under no chains of service. Its not for little that the Silver Ladder is sometimes called the closest to the Seers.

                          However, as mentioned, its ultimately only good for him. In theory he gave a peripheral boost to the Exarch's symbolism and linked his own to theirs, which can't be good. He increased the power of druidic wisdom and made the Aeon human, but made him a very evil human and essentially choked a possibility of a utopia out of existence.

                          I guess a parallel is Julius Caesar. He was an amazing general and a consummate trickster that stopped the Roman Republic from collapsing by gaming the system like few before. He initially did some good while in power. However, he was power hungry and was very much consumed with hubris at the end of his career. So ultimately he became a controversial figure with a powerful impact on history.


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                          • #28
                            Interesting note - the Walkers in Mists, which he was one of, call their elected Chief Druid "The Merlin" - the current Merlin is the 1e signature character Morvran. If Myrddin created the Legacy then it's possible the position is named after him, but as he was a post-Roman tension-between-Asatru-and-Christians kind of guy, the druidic heritage he belonged to likely existed waaaaaay before him - the reason his Wending has entrances in North Wales is because the Isle of Mona is a short swim away, after all.

                            Anyways. "Emrys" was probably his Shadow name, and Myrddin a title. Mages have probably been doing the equivalent of calling him "the famous British archmaster "Hierarch"" all this name.

                            The point of this is getting away from me. What was... Oh,yeah - right.

                            The Archmaster Known as Myrddin Emrys' Noumenon was "The Land and its Ruler are One", with Omens relating to raising someone from obscurity to rulership via destined selection, the rise of a society empowered by that king's destiny, and it's destruction when its Bane came true. Yes, this did entail breaking a few eggs along the way and has possibly doomed Britain to never be truly united, and yes - the fact that Arcadia's Exarchs are "only important people matter" and "everything sucks in the end" meant that they couldn't oppose his Omens without impacting themselves, which must have truly infuriated them to the point of retconning history so hard we ended up with Dark Eras 2, but does that really make him Seer-ish?

                            The Ladder, prone to making the "this colossal act of hubris will be worth it in the end" argument at the best of times, even for relatively low-stakes things like Abyssal magic or Defiling Awakenings, point to Camelot as one giant step toward Heiraconis - in the wake of Rome's venal, human Empire collapsing, one badass mage proved that you *can* make a perfected, magically-led society, even if only for a while. It's a supreme act of Thunder, and a promise to later generations of thearchs - if you have enough cunning, power, and steely-eyed certainty, you can assault heaven and Ascend, and kick the Exarchs in the balls as you do it.
                            Last edited by Dave Brookshaw; 09-28-2020, 01:14 PM.


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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post
                              The Archmaster Known as Myrddin Emrys' Noumenon was "The Land and its Ruler are One", with Omens relating to raising someone from obscurity to rulership via destined selection, the rise of a society empowered by that king's destiny, and it's destruction when its Bane came true. Yes, this did entail breaking a few eggs along the way and has possibly doomed Britain to never be truly united, and yes - the fact that Arcadia's Exarchs are "only important people matter" and "everything sucks in the end" meant that they couldn't oppose his Omens without impacting themselves, which must have truly infuriated them to the point of retconning history so hard we ended up with Dark Eras 2, -
                              Quick question, ignoring the backroom discussion of how that worked out and focusing on in-game: Usually when Aponoia strikes, the remnants are a lot more...minute and sidecast (looking at Ruins of Time Before that may be the result of other Archmaster's shenanigans and other such entities) so if the DE 2 entry is the new version of events post-Aponoia, why does it still look fairly...well, actual happened event-ish? Compared to other cases, there's not as much erasure.

                              I've sort of been running on the assumption that the DE 2 era is more of a interesting What If Scenario rather than actual representation of post-Aponoia events, since the way my mind always wrapped around Aponoia for that event was that the results looked a lot more like the real world's look at Arthurian Reign As Real Thing, so while I'm not surprised to find that it's the revised edition, I'm still stumbling a little with the acceptance of it.


                              Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
                              The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
                              Feminine pronouns, please.

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                              • #30
                                Yeah, I also was very confused from how the previouse material about Camelot works together with Dark Eras 2 material, as it seems to be, well, real within the timeline, instead of erased and gone- so some clarification about they actually work together is actually something I would be interested to see.


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