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  • #31
    Originally posted by LostLight View Post
    Yeah, I also was very confused from how the previouse material about Camelot works together with Dark Eras 2 material, as it seems to be, well, real within the timeline, instead of erased and gone- so some clarification about they actually work together is actually something I would be interested to see.
    Effectively my question, yes.


    Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
    The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
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    • #32
      I was just prompted to look up a lovecraftian horror known as Azathoth. That idiot god creates and destroys all reality without appreciation for the gravity of the fact, such as we who create and destroy dreams. Those on the path of the Golden Road Ascension inhabit that role until they are finished. If there is any time that a mage should play devil's advocate and eviscerates his preconceptions, this is it.

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      • #33
        The prompting was from the talk about Merlin and what he did.

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        • #34
          If you go with a minimal change approach to time manipulations, it makes sense that things would remain identifiably similar in places.

          A fairly easy way to interpret the new material is that it's the echo of the original event. Some particulars are part of Merlin's story and couldn't be excised, so they show up, but that version of Camelot isn't as glorious as the removed version and plays out in some significantly different ways. (I'm torn between Merlin ascending ANYWAY as a fact imprinted on the universe or it being quite possible to prevent it because that's not entirely the same person.)


          Grump, grouse, and/or gripe.

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          • #35
            Technically the archmage's Ascension and the archtype are separate, but sympathetically linked things. Merlin created the True/Fisher King archtype. His place on the Supernal depends on the sealed Omen of Camelot, the united British utopia under Awakened rule. He left Nimue to sabotage it so no one can get the Quintessence to reverse the process.

            I always figured that Ascended mages have to deal with two key problems. The first is that they become palimpsests. The Hero of a Thousand Faces, Merlin, Sherlock Holmes, their platonic ideal is entrenched in the collective unconscious yet their forms drift with each retelling. Since As Above, So Below is a thing, it means their identity is constantly being redefined (both as the result of human culture and magical meddling).

            The second problem is living in a phase of reality shared with a very peculiar group of individuals. The train of thought of Ascended mages can't be considered grounded in common sense by any stretch of the imagination and at least 10 of your neighbors are mustache twirling evil. Considering how difficult it is to move from the Supernal to the Fallen, then it means your everyday interactions can't be good for your sanity.

            When you mix those two, it means those who Ascended without grounding their symbolism in some standards of Wisdom will probably grow more unstable as the ages pass, their sense of self drifting as they are anchored by their Noumenon. I always theorized that was the case for the Exarchs. In life they were gifted, knowledgeable and self serving. But after so many ages of having their symbolism spread, refined and reinterpreted, they have become consumed by the very symbols that they defined. Like the Enraptured, their magical symbolism wields them rather than the other way around, and that itself makes them terrifying.

            I imagine Merlin would be middle of the road. Not exactly a benevolent saint, but also not a monster either. A good counselor with a dangerously utilitarian approach.

            Then again, this is just my interpretation.
            Last edited by KaiserAfini; 10-23-2020, 02:05 PM.


            New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

            The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
            The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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            • #36
              I would expect an archmage to create an uncompromised vision of their desire for the world as their Noumenon, or at least a vision of what they think the world needs. In any case, what was Merlin hoping to accomplish here? Did he stop trying to destroy utopias after his Ascension as the destruction of utopias? What was he willing to sacrifice to achieve his goals? If the Silver Ladder take him as a role model, shouldn't that scare their allies away?

              I know I received the answer in part, but a holistic game plan would be appreciated. That, and I still think he is an asshole.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Excess View Post
                I would expect an archmage to create an uncompromised vision of their desire for the world as their Noumenon, or at least a vision of what they think the world needs.
                The Phenomenal World mostly does not do "uncompromised" and the Phenomenal is the canvas upon which Supernal power dabs its brush. Archspells require commensurately weighty Quintessences that tend to "balance" the products of their casting and Imperium Rites are heady things that risk spiritually maiming or annihilating the incautious Seeker.

                In any case, what was Merlin hoping to accomplish here?
                Ascension, as is the goal of most archmasters. Possibly he had an eye toward the knock-on effects and intended to elevate the symbolism of his Legacy and cultural background or pave the way for the weakening of the Arcadian Exarchs' hold in some particular ways, but "permanent residence in Heaven" would seem a self-evident goal to point to.

                Did he stop trying to destroy utopias after his Ascension as the destruction of utopias?
                He Ascended by doing a cosmic-scale art project demonstrating the Truth he was building, which was the Fisher King truism that the fate of a country and that of its ruler are entwined. There's probably a reason he left Nimue lying around, but it's certainly not because Myrrdin Emrys is inseparable from the concept of destroying utopias.

                What was he willing to sacrifice to achieve his goals?
                Camelot.

                If the Silver Ladder take him as a role model, shouldn't that scare their allies away?
                The Silver Ladder look at a guy who built a perfect society that only fell because he made it to and see a pretty solid point of aspiration for them, the Diamond Order concerned with building a perfect society.

                That, and I still think he is an asshole.
                Nobody has claimed otherwise.


                Resident Lore-Hound
                Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Excess View Post
                  I would expect an archmage to create an uncompromised vision of their desire for the world as their Noumenon, or at least a vision of what they think the world needs. In any case, what was Merlin hoping to accomplish here? Did he stop trying to destroy utopias after his Ascension as the destruction of utopias? What was he willing to sacrifice to achieve his goals? If the Silver Ladder take him as a role model, shouldn't that scare their allies away?

                  I know I received the answer in part, but a holistic game plan would be appreciated. That, and I still think he is an asshole.
                  His plan was to engineer a no win scenario for the Exarchs. If his project were to fail, it would require diminishing the power of two Exarchs (the Ruin and Prophet), so he wins. If they let him Ascend, then a Silver Ladder mage gets a major foothold in the Supernal, so he also wins. The Exarchs picked the least bad option and then threw a tantrum to blow off steam.

                  The good thing is that he proved that a mage lead, Fallen utopia can be made. He also showed that its possible to Ascend in a way the Exarchs cannot stop. But in his hubris he sabotaged the utopia and robbed the British of a unified, enlightened kingdom.

                  Smashing a utopia wasn't the objective, but merely a stepping stone on his bigger goals. He made legendary strides in the fight against the Exarchs, but at the expense of leaving a mess behind him. Its why he is the quintessential Ladder, good intentions mixed with terrible hubris.

                  Regarding what he did since Ascending, no clue, I am not even sure there are any clues of him interfering beyond The Soul Cage, but I am not sure if that is canon.


                  New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                  The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                  The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                  • #39
                    The "soul Cage". From Dark Eras, yes? If not, from where?

                    In any case. From a philosophical point of view you could say the archmages destroy and replace universes for being less than perfect. In most other stories these guys would be super mega end villains, yet it is necessary for cosmic heroism. Just hinting at this could end up sounding worse than Hitler. I was about to use a different description, but it was so visceral that I was afraid of getting banned. On that note, maybe I should start a thread or something to do with archmages.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Excess View Post
                      The "soul Cage". From Dark Eras, yes? If not, from where?
                      Dave Brookshaw ran a couple of games.


                      Resident Lore-Hound
                      Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                      • #41
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