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  • Broadly Dedicated magical tools

    Hello collective
    I have some questions on Dedicated magical tools. I have searched the forums and not found my specific questions.

    The Broad Dedication merit in Signs of Sorcery (p 57) allows the mage to dedicate less material yantras including environments, investiture, mantras, and runes.

    1: Does this include the possibility of a mage using his Shadow Name as a dedicated tool?

    2: Could you use the Inheritance merit (same page as Broad Dedication) as a dedicated tool?

    3: When using the rules for two dedicated tools (SoS p 51) is there any reason that the level four Egregor merit would not work? So essentially you could assign a second dedicated magical tool on the fly?

    4: Other than allowing the mage to dedicate up to three magical tools, what does Profligate Dedication actually do? I’ve read this over and over, the wording just seems wonky to me.

    Thanks

  • #2
    Originally posted by Servanous View Post
    Hello collective
    I have some questions on Dedicated magical tools. I have searched the forums and not found my specific questions.

    The Broad Dedication merit in Signs of Sorcery (p 57) allows the mage to dedicate less material yantras including environments, investiture, mantras, and runes.

    1: Does this include the possibility of a mage using his Shadow Name as a dedicated tool?

    2: Could you use the Inheritance merit (same page as Broad Dedication) as a dedicated tool?

    3: When using the rules for two dedicated tools (SoS p 51) is there any reason that the level four Egregor merit would not work? So essentially you could assign a second dedicated magical tool on the fly?

    4: Other than allowing the mage to dedicate up to three magical tools, what does Profligate Dedication actually do? I’ve read this over and over, the wording just seems wonky to me.

    Thanks
    4 you can dedicate three items, but you can use only two of them per spell.
    If i understand it rightly, when you dedicate two tools and you don t use both on a spell that risk paradox, the paradox pool increase of two dice.
    The merit let you ignore the penalty if you use at least one of the three dedicated items

    1 and 2 i think it s possible

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    • #3
      Thanks for the feedback Neos01
      The problem with Profligate Dedication is that normally using two dedicated tools gives you full benefits as defined in SoS p52.

      Using one cuts off one of that tools benefits, either 1: using it for paradox reduction or 2: using it as a path or order tool. Using no dedicated tools increases paradox risk.

      If Profligate Dedication allowed the use of one tool to have the benefits of the path or order tool and reduced paradox normally (by two) it would make sense as a merit. The way the rules work now, you only gain increased paradox for having no dedicated tools. Profligate Dedication does not mitigate that because you still need one tool. This is why I'm confused.

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      • #4
        I think that on pag 52, when it describe the paradox penalty, the quote "Should she cast without either Dedicated tool" uses the word "either" to point that the penalty applies if the caster uses zero or one dedicated tool.
        This would make sense, since the previous paragraph says that the mage must invest more nimbus when dedicating a second tool, and without both tools at hand the paradox would use the missing soul part as an easy entrance to the world.

        But english is not my first language, so maybe i have translated wrongly this use of the word either

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Neos01 View Post
          I think that on pag 52, when it describe the paradox penalty, the quote "Should she cast without either Dedicated tool" uses the word "either" to point that the penalty applies if the caster uses zero or one dedicated tool.
          This would make sense, since the previous paragraph says that the mage must invest more nimbus when dedicating a second tool, and without both tools at hand the paradox would use the missing soul part as an easy entrance to the world.

          But english is not my first language, so maybe i have translated wrongly this use of the word either
          I'm reasonably certain that the penalty only applies if you're using zero Dedicated tools, because the preceding sentence describes the consequences of only using one.


          Resident Lore-Hound
          Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
            I'm reasonably certain that the penalty only applies if you're using zero Dedicated tools, because the preceding sentence describes the consequences of only using one.
            Well, then Servanous doubt on Profligate Dedication is legit, and the merit or the dedicated tools paragraph contains an error

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Neos01 View Post
              Well, then Servanous doubt on Profligate Dedication is legit, and the merit or the dedicated tools paragraph contains an error
              "Without either" means "with none of them".

              The phrase is confusing, yes, but it's not an error.


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                "Without either" means "with none of them".

                The phrase is confusing, yes, but it's not an error.
                But the merit says "does not gain increased Paradox dice for only using one of his tools."

                There is a contradiction

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Neos01 View Post
                  But the merit says "does not gain increased Paradox dice for only using one of his tools."

                  There is a contradiction
                  Approach it from the opposite angle. Failing to use two of your Dedicated Tools (if you have multiple Dedicated Tools) normally adds Paradox dice, but with that Merit, failing to use two (or three) of your Dedicated Tools no longer adds Paradox dice.


                  Bloodline: The Stygians
                  Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                  Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                  • #10
                    Satchel and Tessie thanks for the feedback. If Profligate Dedication eliminates that paradox penalty for having no dedicated tools that is really awesome.

                    Another question, I'm thinking of designing a mage with his own Shadow Name and High speech as his dedicated magical tools. In Signs of Sorcery p 52 it says that if someone steals both tools then they can cast at the character without the spell being withstood by sympathy. I'm thinking that if another mage knows the character's dedicated shadow name and high speech that wouldn't count as steeling, since the character is not deprived of these tools, but just making sure.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                      Approach it from the opposite angle. Failing to use two of your Dedicated Tools (if you have multiple Dedicated Tools) normally adds Paradox dice, but with that Merit, failing to use two (or three) of your Dedicated Tools no longer adds Paradox dice.
                      Your way of approaching it could indeed be correct.
                      My only perplexity is that in the merit description it says that the penalty is negated if using at least one dedicated item.
                      But maybe i have an older version of the pdf, i ll try to download it again

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Servanous View Post
                        Satchel and Tessie thanks for the feedback. If Profligate Dedication eliminates that paradox penalty for having no dedicated tools that is really awesome.

                        Another question, I'm thinking of designing a mage with his own Shadow Name and High speech as his dedicated magical tools. In Signs of Sorcery p 52 it says that if someone steals both tools then they can cast at the character without the spell being withstood by sympathy. I'm thinking that if another mage knows the character's dedicated shadow name and high speech that wouldn't count as steeling, since the character is not deprived of these tools, but just making sure.
                        Just knowing the Shadow Name doesn't actually mean anything. It's the persona, i.e. acting according to your Shadow Name, that is the Yantra.

                        And yes, actually, it might be that using non-physical Dedicated Yantras is enough to count as "stealing" them. Remember that Dedicated Tools are not magical in and of themselves. It's the mage's own Nimbus which is shaped around their Dedicated Tool(s). As such, having access to a mage's two Dedicated Yantras (even if non-physical) does mean your spell resonated much more closely with that mage, potentially negating the sympathetic Withstand.


                        Bloodline: The Stygians
                        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                          Just knowing the Shadow Name doesn't actually mean anything. It's the persona, i.e. acting according to your Shadow Name, that is the Yantra.

                          And yes, actually, it might be that using non-physical Dedicated Yantras is enough to count as "stealing" them. Remember that Dedicated Tools are not magical in and of themselves. It's the mage's own Nimbus which is shaped around their Dedicated Tool(s). As such, having access to a mage's two Dedicated Yantras (even if non-physical) does mean your spell resonated much more closely with that mage, potentially negating the sympathetic Withstand.
                          I'd argue you'd have to replicate the exact same Shadow Name with the exact same symbolism and perfectly mimic their particular method of using High Speech to gain that benefit; simply knowing their Shadow Name doesn't give you access to the invested symbolism and just knowing High Speech yourself is more like owning the same type of wrench as someone else, it's not really the exact same wrench.


                          Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
                            I'd argue you'd have to replicate the exact same Shadow Name with the exact same symbolism and perfectly mimic their particular method of using High Speech to gain that benefit; simply knowing their Shadow Name doesn't give you access to the invested symbolism and just knowing High Speech yourself is more like owning the same type of wrench as someone else, it's not really the exact same wrench.
                            I kinda agree with the persona (which, technically speaking, is not the Shadow Name which instead is the name of the role which grants the persona Yantra) but the exactness implies a routine to acting according to a persona which does not exist. A mage using their own persona Yantra in a spell could actually express it in many different ways with multiple variations. It just needs to fulfil enough of the symbolism; all the flair in acting out it only needs to be thematically appropriate. For example, the mage called Thor often uses a hammer as a prop to his role, but he still needs to act the part as well. Losing the hammer should prompt Thor to act a little more convincing to compensate, but it's hardly in the way as long as he has other trappings and mannerisms.
                            That said, it should not be easy to emulate. I would require some sort of Skill roll to see if an enemy mage succeeds in emulating it.

                            I do disagree about High Speech, though, at least the high specificity you're implying. High Speech is not personalised and it's by necessity different for different spells. While any specific mage might have some go-to "phrases", using them as necessary qualifiers implies they themselves could be disqualified from using mantras as Dedicated Yantras despite having the Broad Dedication Merit.
                            Basically, what I mean is that not even a mage who has Dedicated the mantra uses the same wrench every time. Many improvised spells would require brand new "wrenches" each time.


                            Bloodline: The Stygians
                            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                              I kinda agree with the persona (which, technically speaking, is not the Shadow Name which instead is the name of the role which grants the persona Yantra) but the exactness implies a routine to acting according to a persona which does not exist. A mage using their own persona Yantra in a spell could actually express it in many different ways with multiple variations. It just needs to fulfil enough of the symbolism; all the flair in acting out it only needs to be thematically appropriate. For example, the mage called Thor often uses a hammer as a prop to his role, but he still needs to act the part as well. Losing the hammer should prompt Thor to act a little more convincing to compensate, but it's hardly in the way as long as he has other trappings and mannerisms.
                              That said, it should not be easy to emulate. I would require some sort of Skill roll to see if an enemy mage succeeds in emulating it.
                              I may be running the Shadow Name merit wrong, but acting in accordance with the Shadow Name is just general maintenance, the merit can only be used as a Yantra for thematically relevant spells. A Mage with the Shadow Name Thor would be able to use the persona yantra on spells dealing with "lightning, thunder, storms, sacred groves and trees, strength, the protection of mankind and also hallowing and fertility." Probably also on spells around enhancing or otherwise magically manipulating a war hammer. But the hammer would be another Yantra, perhaps another Dedicated Tool, not a part of the Shadow Name; Thor is not the god of hammers, after all.

                              (And I'm conflating Shadow Name with Persona Yantra here because the Merit is called Shadow Name)

                              I do disagree about High Speech, though, at least the high specificity you're implying. High Speech is not personalised and it's by necessity different for different spells. While any specific mage might have some go-to "phrases", using them as necessary qualifiers implies they themselves could be disqualified from using mantras as Dedicated Yantras despite having the Broad Dedication Merit.
                              Basically, what I mean is that not even a mage who has Dedicated the mantra uses the same wrench every time. Many improvised spells would require brand new "wrenches" each time.
                              That's fair, it would also significantly discourage using something like High Speech as a Dedicated Tool given how vulnerable it leaves you.

                              Reading up on it more, I also wonder if you could even dedicate High Speech: like, how do you suffuse all of High Speech with your Nimbus?
                              Last edited by proindrakenzol; 09-30-2020, 01:48 PM.


                              Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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