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The Other Five Paths

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    OK; let’s see about tackling this:

    Every Path now has two archetypes in FWC. The genesis of this “two archetypes” thing was to preserve the original archetypes while also introducing (in at least two cases) new names that the devs would prefer to use. In a similar way, I’ll use a ”two archetypes” model. with one of the archetypes for each Path being cribbed from the “official” set of ten archetypes, and the other one being designed specifically with the Path in mind.

    No matter what, I’m going to be keeping the Chrysopos (Matter/Prime alchemists and craftsmen), the Hieraoidos (Time/Mind enchanters and bards), and the Palinoros (Life/Death shamans and druids). That last one was the most problematic for me, as both “shaman” and “ecstatic” are very good fits for the Thyrsus (shamans because of the association that that archetype has established with Spirit, and ecstatics because it’s, well, the Path of Ecstasy. The latter is what ended up breaking the tie: Palinoros are the Path of Balance, not Ecstasy; and to me, shamanism is about maintaining a balance between two halves of a thing.

    That leaves the other two Paths. I’m either sticking with the Cælum (Space/Fate warlocks and astrologers) and the Epikrateia (Forces/Spirit thaumaturges and sorcerers), or I’m devising two new Paths, one for Space/Spirit warlocks and ___ and one for Forces/Fate thaumaturges and ___. If I do the former, I’ll revert the Epikrateia Watchtower to the Watchtower of Brass and Flame; after all, the Thyrsus Watchtower has become the Watchtower of the Singing Stone, breaking the pattern of “Watchtower of the ”. As I’ve said before, my main issue with sticking with these two is with the Cælum, as astrology is more of a Time thing than a Fate thing.

    So if we stick with the Paths as I’ve presented them thus far, we have:

    • Acanthus: Witches (and enchanters) on the Path of Thorns
    • Cælum: Astrologers (and warlocks) on the Path of Discovery
    • Chrysopos: Alchemists (and craftsmen) on the Path of Excellence
    • Epikrateia: Thaumaturges (and sorcerers) on the Path of Mastery
    • Hieraoidos: Enchanters (and bards) on the Path of Enlightenment
    • Mastigos: Warlocks (and psychonauts) on the Path of Scourging
    • Moros: Necromancers (and alchemists) on the Path of Doom
    • Obrimos: Theurges (and thaumaturges) on the Path of the Mighty
    • Palinoros: Druids (and shamans) on the Path of Balance
    • Thyrsus: Shamans (and ecstatics) on the Path of Ecstasy

    There are a few oddities here: Cælum being known (even secondarily) as Warlocks is one; Moros being known primarily as Necromancers despite Dave’s desire to recast them as Alchemists is another. Conversely, I rather like the Epikrateia being known primarily as thaumaturges, and I could definitely get used to the Hieraoidos being known primarily as Enchanters. On the Moros thing, I’m reverting them to Necromancers for two reasons: first, Maatter/Prime says “alchemist” to me far better than Matter/Death does; second, the Moros are still on the Path of Doom; and alchemy doesn’t really strike me as a “doom” thing.

    The other possibility I’m considering is to reverse “warlock” and “thaumaturge” where the Cælum and Epikrateia are concerned: conceptually, “warlock” feels like a better fit for the Epikrateia, and “thaumaturge” seems reasonable for the Cælum. The oddity here is that “warlock” would no longer be associated with either Mind or Space, while “thaumaturge” would no longer be associated with either Prime or Forces. Hmm…

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Could we take this Bender Path/Legacy stuff to another topic, please?

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  • wulf
    replied
    Originally posted by The Kings Raven View Post
    Given how specific it is, perhaps it might work better as a Legacy.
    I should've considered this first as it makes the most sense. An Obrimos-based Legacy that favors Mind and has clear wind/air flavourings. I'd want to go into specifics with those one, however, about how various spells under the Forces Arcanum would be described if they utilized wind and air instead of fire and lightning.

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  • Foolish Milex
    replied
    I don't think it's possible to use language without symbols attributable to multiple Arcana, so aspects of Fate that help differentiate it from Time are going to end up involving other Arcana rather than truly "pure" Fate. In fact, it'd be useful to intentionally think about each of the other eight Arcana's relationship to Fate to help differentiate it from its default pairing.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    Interesting. Usually, when I think of Interconnections I tend to think of Space rather than Fate.

    Satchel’s talk of The Odds makes me think more along the lines of a hidden order within chaos, of bringing sense and meaning out of apparent randomness. Fractals and the mathematics of Chaos Theory. Hmm…

    (Bear in mind that we’ll remain in brainstorming mode until the Paths preview is released. Possibly longer than that, if they choose to withhold the new archetypes. But Fate/Forces is slated to get one of FWC’s Obrimos archetypes.)

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  • Foolish Milex
    replied
    Fate without Time? Interconnections and Oaths.

    I like pairing Time with Forces more, especially with musical motifs and Mind in tow. Fate and Forces? Hmmm. I'd use Justice as the Path card, reflecting the Daoine Legacy's approach to Fate and the "equal and opposite reaction" of physics. Also, everything you can look into regarding thermodynamic entropy. And since we're talking magic, its related pseudosciences i.e. perpetual motion machines. And mind that Time will still be influential on this Fate as a Common Arcanum, if you want it to be.
    Last edited by Foolish Milex; 07-15-2014, 08:03 PM.

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  • Satchel
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    What is Fate by itself?
    "The walk through life isn’t predestined, per se. But the road is set; deviation is always harder than just walking the path."

    Fate is The Odds. Destiny can be thwarted, but it has the weight of likely Patterns on its side.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    For the purpose of the “other five Paths”, I’m more interested in how Fate and Time work independent of each other rather than how they work as a pair. They are, after all separate Arcana; each ought to be able to stand on its own. Enchanters — storytellers who entrance people with tales of other times and serve to preserve history so that the future may be guided by it — show how Mind and Time could synergize.

    Before taking a stab at synergizing Fate and Forces, though, I’d like a clearer picture of what Fate is without Time. What is Fate by itself?

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  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    I look at the Fate/Time interaction like this, with Fate you say, "I want something to happen." Then with Time you can check how it's actually going to play out, since a lot of the Fate spells actually go so far as to say the Mage relinquishes himself to the flow of Fate not knowing what's going to happen exactly just that he'll achieve his desired outcome. In other words he might know the destination but not the journey. Time can tell you the journey, and in conjunction with Fate can tell you the destination as well. For instance, Prophecy or Divination which are Time spells are the only way I'm aware of for figuring out what someone's Destiny is and getting advice on how to help it come to pass or shut it down. You could argue that it could be a Fate knowing or unveiling effect to read someone's Destiny, but I feel that the lack of any such spell in any of the Mage books to date shows that perhaps that is not what Fate is for. I always appreciated the fact that Time and Fate seem to be highly synergistic with each other, Time lets you hatch all your plans, and spy on the plans of others Fate lets you subtly move them forwards and thwart your foes.

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  • 123456789blaaa
    replied
    ~~
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    The Chysopos are in no danger of changing — much (with the possible removal of the Cælum, I’m thinking of co-opting mercury/quicksilver/Hermium as part of the Chropos Watchtower’s symbology, considering how central to alchemy mercury is often portrayed). The Hieraoides and Palinoros might get some minor tweaks (such as replacing “bard” with “enchanter”); but they’re mostly safe. The Epikrateia and Cælum are the ones that are in danger; and if I drop them from this setup, I’ll be sure to archive them.

    As for the suitability of Fate for prognostication: if you take a look at the actual spells under Fate, they generally don’t deal with the future; they’re much more heavily focused on matters of luck, chance, and karma, which is about as much about shaping the future as using Forces to push a boulder off a cliff “predestines” the rock to come crashing to the ground below, smashing a hapless coyote. Determining what will become of a person has always been the purview of Time.
    That more a matter of developer inclination though. Destiny is just as much a part of Fate's purview than probability is. That developers chose to make more example spells for the latter than the former is just a choice on their part. A player has just as much of a right to create a dozen more spells involving destiny.

    Here are some spells from Core if you want a few though:

    Interconnections: Allows you to detect alterations of destiny (the person who was supposed to grow up to be a great leader is now destined to be a pig farmer). The caster can also detect interconnections of destiny, such as if one person viewed (or depicted nearby) is destined to be the mentor or apprentice of another person viewed or depicted — or is destined to be his murderer.

    Reading the outmost eddies: Some believe that this spell creates a small manipulation of chance, while others maintain that it just gives a mage an idea of what’s coming next. In either case, the results are the same. The caster knows the outcome of some small random (or mostly random) action in her immediately vicinity.

    The Sybils Sight: The mage can detect momentous events. While this spell is in effect, a reflexive Wits + Investigation roll is made to sense when something of metaphysical weight or truth has been spoken or taken place.

    I can easily see the effects of a bunch of Time spells (Augruy for example) being replicated by Fate Creative Thaumaturgy. Probably on a grander scale though since Fate doesn’t pay much attention to unimportant details.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    The Chysopos are in no danger of changing — much (with the possible removal of the Cælum, I’m thinking of co-opting mercury/quicksilver/Hermium as part of the Chropos Watchtower’s symbology, considering how central to alchemy mercury is often portrayed). The Hieraoides and Palinoros might get some minor tweaks (such as replacing “bard” with “enchanter”); but they’re mostly safe. The Epikrateia and Cælum are the ones that are in danger; and if I drop them from this setup, I’ll be sure to archive them.

    As for the suitability of Fate for prognostication: if you take a look at the actual spells under Fate, they generally don’t deal with the future; they’re much more heavily focused on matters of luck, chance, and karma, which is about as much about shaping the future as using Forces to push a boulder off a cliff “predestines” the rock to come crashing to the ground below, smashing a hapless coyote. Determining what will become of a person has always been the purview of Time.

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  • 123456789blaaa
    replied
    Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
    As much as I like the imagery of the Cælum, I’ve come to the conclusion that they’re fatally flawed: despite its name, “Fate” isn’t really about predictions. I’m thinking that astrologers are more suited for Time/Space — except that that breaks the “one Subtle, one Gross” pattern to which all Paths conform. Note also that FWC will apparently be adding some mechanical support for the Gross/Subtle distinction; so having Paths favor one each of Subtle and Gross is likely to become more important.

    On the “artificiality” of this new approach, note that a number of the five Paths that I originally created were likewise “artificial”, in that I started with two or three Path ideas and assigned Arcana to them, and then bundled the remaining Arcana into Gross/Subtle pairs and evdeavored to craft concepts to fit them. The only difference this time is that I haven’t done the work in advance — because I can’t; not until I know what the full set of archetypes in FWC will be. This approach is precisely as artificial as the original one was, but this time, you’re seeing me make the sausage.
    No? Fate covers Destiny and Probability in its purview. The astrologer looking to the stars and determining that a child is destined to bring about the downfall of an empire seems entirely appropriate.

    Anyways, if you do decide to change the Chrysopos, Caelum, and other Paths, I'd appreciate you putting the old versions in spoilers beneath the new ones. There are some things that only apply to the old versions that I wouldn't want to completely get rid of. For example, I quite like things like the Rebis being the Aeon of the Chrysopos Arcanum pairing and this doesn't work as well with the updated Chrysopos.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    For reference purposes:

    Prime/Forces: theurge (probably)
    Fate/Time: witch
    Mind/Space: warlock (maybe)
    Spirit/Life: shaman (probably)
    Death/Matter: necromancer

    Prime/Matter: alchemist
    Death/Life: shaman (unlikely)
    Spirit/Space: warlock (maybe)
    Mind/Time: enchanter
    Fate/Forces: theurge (unlikely)

    Again, shaman, warlock, and theurge will each go with only one of the two Paths listed above; which one depends on what the new FWC archetype names for Mastigos, Obrimos, and Thyrsus turn out to be. And bear in mind that I’m not sure I can make this work. It all depends on the three currently unknown archetypes.
    Last edited by Dataweaver; 07-15-2014, 03:16 PM.

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  • Dataweaver
    replied
    As much as I like the imagery of the Cælum, I’ve come to the conclusion that they’re fatally flawed: despite its name, “Fate” isn’t really about predictions. I’m thinking that astrologers are more suited for Time/Space — except that that breaks the “one Subtle, one Gross” pattern to which all Paths conform. Note also that FWC will apparently be adding some mechanical support for the Gross/Subtle distinction; so having Paths favor one each of Subtle and Gross is likely to become more important.

    On the “artificiality” of this new approach, note that a number of the five Paths that I originally created were likewise “artificial”, in that I started with two or three Path ideas and assigned Arcana to them, and then bundled the remaining Arcana into Gross/Subtle pairs and evdeavored to craft concepts to fit them. The only difference this time is that I haven’t done the work in advance — because I can’t; not until I know what the full set of archetypes in FWC will be. This approach is precisely as artificial as the original one was, but this time, you’re seeing me make the sausage.

    Leave a comment:


  • Yuukale
    replied
    I always thought of Mind+Time as the perfect historian. Able to access information long lost to our time and access what people actually felt and thought and meant, enabling him to produce much more accurate info on the past.

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