Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

General Discussion on Ascended Beings

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • General Discussion on Ascended Beings

    Hello all, I had another thread that was discussing some of my ideas on ascended beings. There was some good discussions going on, so I thought I'd create a new thread and open it up to everyone to discuss ideas and pose questions about how post-ascension characters operate in the WOD and fun ways in which they can be implemented into chronicles of all tiers.

    I'll kick it off by posing this question: In Imperial Mysteries, it states that the Supernal Gods are the equivalent of the most powerful entities in the shadow / astral / underworld. My question is, how can this be true if those being exist in the phenomenal world. For example, how can Astral Luna be the equivalent of the Supernal symbol for Moons. Such a Supernal being would encompass Luna and all other moons in the universe.

  • #2
    Astral Luna is how people think about the moon, Shadow Luna is how people feel about the moon. So how are they related to the Supernal one ? They are facets of the same Truth. They are material manifestation of the same Platonic Forms, different incarnations of the same idea, created as the light of Ein Sof / The Supernal degrades when it moves down the tree of life. Like how the ochemata are facets of the post human beings that created them, how Eidoforms are for the "perfect incarnation" and mundane items are mere iterations upon the same quintessential concept. The main caveat is that the Supernal one has just as much trouble manifesting larger portions of itself in the Fallen as anything else, so they can only manifest pockets of the same power (represented by the Rank of the being a mage summons).


    New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

    The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
    The Szary Stra┼╝nik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Letalis View Post
      I'll kick it off by posing this question: In Imperial Mysteries, it states that the Supernal Gods are the equivalent of the most powerful entities in the shadow / astral / underworld. My question is, how can this be true if those being exist in the phenomenal world. For example, how can Astral Luna be the equivalent of the Supernal symbol for Moons. Such a Supernal being would encompass Luna and all other moons in the universe.
      The really blunt and prosaic explanation is: Supernal Gods are Rank 6+ beings in their context just as the most powerful beings in the Invisible Realms are. Being in a largely inaccessible portion of the cosmology doesn't make them individually stronger, for all that their Arcana and Supernal Perfection make them more effective than Phenomenal beings.

      By analogy: Rank in the Astral corresponds to the significance of a given goetia to its layer of the Astral, while Rank in the Shadow corresponds roughly to the weight of emotion, memory, symbolism, and history of a given spirit, and Rank in the Underworld is largely a function of deathly power obtained by a ghost through necromancy, cannibalism, or unique circumstances. Rank in the Supernal corresponds to a symbolic entity's place in the True hierarchy of the source of all magic, and the abilities being part of that specific hierarchy conveys do not give Supernal beings different basic stats than a different being of analogous Rank.


      Resident Lore-Hound
      Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Satchel View Post
        The really blunt and prosaic explanation is: Supernal Gods are Rank 6+ beings in their context just as the most powerful beings in the Invisible Realms are. Being in a largely inaccessible portion of the cosmology doesn't make them individually stronger, for all that their Arcana and Supernal Perfection make them more effective than Phenomenal beings.
        But it kinda does on a lower lever? I mean, if you compare 2nd Rank Supernal to 2nd Rank Spirit (take Red Castellan against any other written spirit), they are not even close in capabilities and power ceiling. Why it should be different to Rank 6+ beings? Imperial Arcana is still more flexible and powerful than Royal Influences, even without 2e power-ups to Supernals.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Dark Archon View Post
          But it kinda does on a lower lever? I mean, if you compare 2nd Rank Supernal to 2nd Rank Spirit (take Red Castellan against any other written spirit), they are not even close in capabilities and power ceiling. Why it should be different to Rank 6+ beings? Imperial Arcana is still more flexible and powerful than Royal Influences, even without 2e power-ups to Supernals.
          Because a god is still a god even if it isn't a True god. Luna not being a Supernal entity doesn't make her potential stats worse than those of a Rank 8 Supernal being or undo the fact that she'll automatically win a Clash with any sub-transcendent entity or remove her immunity to direct influence by the common Practices.

          Like, the section from which this question is being derived is very plainly just saying "Supernal gods are Rank 6+ beings in the Supernal Realms' hierarchy just like Luna, the deathlords, the Aeons, etc, are Rank 6+ beings in their respective invisible worlds, less individuals than sentient places you can cut a deal with." "How can this be true?" is answered with "Very easily" in that context.


          Resident Lore-Hound
          Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

          Comment


          • #6
            I feel the obvious must be stated, because the root of the problem comes from it:

            An assumption that the Supernal has superiority over the Phenomenal fails to pay attention to how the Phenomenal is equivalently important to the Supernal in Imperial Mysteries. That mages are the sort of people who prioritize the ideal over the real does not sufficiently demonstrate a failure of that fact.

            The Supernal Gods are gods of the ideal. The gods of the Shadow, Underworld, Astral, Arcadia, and more asides are the gods of the real. The only meaningful difference between the two is one presupposes where the other assumes.


            Sean K.I.W./Kelly R.A. Steele, Freelance Writer(Feel free to call me Sean, Kelly, Arcane, or Arc)
            The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.-Keiichi Sigsawa, Kino's Journey
            Feminine pronouns, please.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
              Because a god is still a god even if it isn't a True god. Luna not being a Supernal entity doesn't make her potential stats worse than those of a Rank 8 Supernal being or undo the fact that she'll automatically win a Clash with any sub-transcendent entity or remove her immunity to direct influence by the common Practices.
              No, but she will not have Imperial Arcana. She will have her Royal Influences instead, which are not so broad and more specific in purview. So she is already less powerful just by having a lesser purview to which she can apply her powers, even if Supernal Gods still require Quintessence to use Imperial Arcana (which may not be true or can be circumvented by producing Quintessence in basement universes, Exarch-style).

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Dark Archon View Post
                No, but she will not have Imperial Arcana. She will have her Royal Influences instead, which are not so broad and more specific in purview.
                "I can do literally anything as long as it relates to one of the most prominent celestial objects in the Earthly sphere and its spiritual connotations" is plenty broad; even with the advantage of casting time, Aeons and Supernal gods are constrained by the Practices until Arcanum 9, at which point "Supernal gods can cast Imperial spells as instant actions" and "The Practice of Transfiguration lets you do anything within its purview" syncs up with "Influence 8 lets you replicate the Practice of Transfiguration for your purview" and "You can use Numina based on the Imperial Practices as an instant action."

                When you have to be the equivalent of the hypothetical spirit of the Earth itself, who's more powerful gets to splitting hairs, particularly because, again, "Rank 6+ Supernal beings are the Supernal equivalent of Rank 6+ beings of other types in their own hierarchies" is still both factual and what the section under discussion was saying.

                So she is already less powerful just by having a lesser purview to which she can apply her powers, even if Supernal Gods still require Quintessence to use Imperial Arcana (which may not be true or can be circumvented by producing Quintessence in basement universes, Exarch-style).
                Being the Moon and having the ability to mess with anything that connects to that means she doesn't have to worry about the fact that Transformation, Tidal Forces, Madness, the Shadow, the Night, and so on have basically no throughline in the Arcana themselves.

                Luna also has the advantage of inhabiting a part of the universe where, incredibly busy though she is, she and her servants don't have to worry about getting eaten by the chasm of impossibility between the Ideal and the Real if they take too long to do their work or get seen by too many normal people. Stripped of context, Supernal gods win against their equivalents, but that's in a world that looks nothing like the normal setting.


                Resident Lore-Hound
                Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  "I can do literally anything as long as it relates to one of the most prominent celestial objects in the Earthly sphere and its spiritual connotations" is plenty broad
                  I would say it still not as broad as "I can do almost anything as long as it relates to one of the ten fundamental divisions of the universe".

                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  Even with the advantage of casting time, Aeons and Supernal gods are constrained by the Practices until Arcanum 9, at which point "Supernal gods can cast Imperial spells as instant actions" and "The Practice of Transfiguration lets you do anything within its purview" syncs up with "Influence 8 lets you replicate the Practice of Transfiguration for your purview" and "You can use Numina based on the Imperial Practices as an instant action."
                  Practice aren't much of the power constrainment as they are precision constrainment. Most of "do anything" is covered by non-Imperial Practices, and most of the remaining "do anything" is covered by remaining Imperial Practices up to Dominions.

                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  Being the Moon and having the ability to mess with anything that connects to that means she doesn't have to worry about the fact that Transformation, Tidal Forces, Madness, the Shadow, the Night, and so on have basically no throughline in the Arcana themselves.
                  Thing is, Supernals can have Influences as well as Arcana. Supernal Moon can have all those on top of having Space or Forces 8, while Phenomenal Luna can't have those.

                  Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                  Luna also has the advantage of inhabiting a part of the universe where, incredibly busy though she is, she and her servants don't have to worry about getting eaten by the chasm of impossibility between the Ideal and the Real if they take too long to do their work or get seen by too many normal people. Stripped of context, Supernal gods win against their equivalents, but that's in a world that looks nothing like the normal setting.
                  That much is true, though not all Supernals suffer from staying too long in the Fallen - Ochemata don't suffer.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Thank you for your replies. It definitely gave me new perspectives on the relation between phenomenonal and suoernal.

                    Another question that I have, Do all ascended beings have dhatu? Also, would an archmage's chantry ascend to become their dhatu when they ascended, or would it be an emenation realm that links to their dhatu?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Letalis View Post
                      Thank you for your replies. It definitely gave me new perspectives on the relation between phenomenonal and suoernal.

                      Another question that I have, Do all ascended beings have dhatu? Also, would an archmage's chantry ascend to become their dhatu when they ascended, or would it be an emenation realm that links to their dhatu?
                      From imperial mysteries, golden roads of ascended archmages persist unaltered, with an iris leading directly to the supernal

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        But it also says that they sometimes merge with their cintimani or chantry.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Letalis View Post
                          Another question that I have, Do all ascended beings have dhatu? Also, would an archmage's chantry ascend to become their dhatu when they ascended, or would it be an emenation realm that links to their dhatu?
                          I think, being near-omnipotent or fully omnipotent beings, they can create Dhatu on the fly if they feel need to create one. But I don't think every Ascended being feels the need for fixed place-representation of their symbolism.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Hello all, I'm back again with more metaphysics questions: When a mage ascends, does their post ascension rank correspond roughly to their pre-ascended magical power? By that I mean does a gnosis 9, arcana 8 archmage ascending via the Golden Road result in a more powerful ascended being than a Gnosis 3, arcana 4 adept who ascends via supernal work or some other means?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Letalis View Post
                              Hello all, I'm back again with more metaphysics questions: When a mage ascends, does their post ascension rank correspond roughly to their pre-ascended magical power? By that I mean does a gnosis 9, arcana 8 archmage ascending via the Golden Road result in a more powerful ascended being than a Gnosis 3, arcana 4 adept who ascends via supernal work or some other means?
                              An ascended being has the luxury of being in the supernal all the time. We really don't have any rules on them. They might function differently then normal mages and might have new rules all together but even if they aren't powerful, the difference will mostly result in one being able to create orchemata or create imperial spells. This means that these kinds of ascended beings can't interact with anything outside of the supernal. However, what that means is up the ST without any real rules behind them.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X