Apostate into archmage

[Epimetheus]

How do the Tetrachs and exemplars react to an apostate becoming an archmage? What happens when they don't know anything about mage society in general?

[Epimetheus]

Can a mod move this to the mage the awakening thread. I don't know how but it switched where I was posting from.

[Isator Levi]

Given that most archmages are neither of those and they're already naturally detached from Awakened society as a whole, I can't see it mattering at all. There's a whole wider world out there in which to cultivate Omens, and I imagine a Nameless who rose that high is already deeply acquainted with it.

Was it a faction of archmasters or just the one individual who makes a habit of introducing the newbies to some of the etiquette of their station?

Edit: Unless this means apostate by the definition from Left-Hand Path, i.e. former Order mage who left (although the reference to not knowing society suggests to me that it's just a Nameless).

In which case I still think tetrarchs would be no more motivated by a former-Seer than they are in opposition to all other archmages generally.

While I think an Exemplar of that former Order might regard the person's departure as an intellectual curiosity but are kind of beyond taking it personally.

I mean, maybe if an apostate from the Adamantine Arrow is all "I'm going to employ my godlike power for vengeance against the whole Order/I think the Arrow is wrong on a fundamental level and needs to go down", that would draw opposition from Arrow exemplars. But because of what they're doing, not what they are.

[saibot]

Every new archmaster is greeted by the Bodhisattva Aaliyah, who explains the situation and especially the Pax Arcanum. Even if a Nameless were to achieve Archmastery without ever encountering the Pentacle or Seers (already unlikely to begin with), Aaliyah would set them straight.

On the question whether such a mage would be allowed to achieve archmastery in the first place without being stopped by Exemplars or Tetrarchs, it very much depends on what the other Ententes think of them. Even if there is no sign the newcomer would align with a given Entente, members may still consider them either a worthy peer or potential aide in their own plans. Especially Bodhisattvas may protect such a Threshold Seeking, but also Alienated and Siddhas may think that someone so "untouched" by wider Awakened politics would make for a great fit for their agendas, directly or indirectly.

[Isator Levi]

It's been years since I read Imperial Mysteries, but surely there have to be a few archmages that don't belong to any Entente, right? There has to be somebody whose idea of how to Ascend takes a form other than "become one with a god", "personify an Arcanum" or... were the Bodhisattvas about holding off Ascension altogether to be moral guides for others, or was moral guidance their path to Ascension?

Either way, at least, like, five who don't come under the big umbrellas?

Is interference in Threshold Seekings presented as much of a thing archmages, even the Tetrarchs, do? Perhaps opportunistically, but I'd expect in most cases they're too busy with other things.

[Michael]

...were the Bodhisattvas about holding off Ascension altogether to be moral guides for others, or was moral guidance their path to Ascension?

Both. They use the Golden Road like everyone else, but have their own theoretical Ascension based upon helping others.

Is interference in Threshold Seekings presented as much of a thing archmages, even the Tetrarchs, do? Perhaps opportunistically, but I'd expect in most cases they're too busy with other things

It's explicit that they do. There are so few of them that any new archmasters immediately tilt the balance of power. It's stated that that's the reason there aren't any Banisher archmasters.

[ArcaneArts]

What happens when they don't know anything about mage society in general?

I'm not sure why no one has addressed this part of it, buuuuuut

The odds of an archmage becoming an archmage without context for the broad strokes of mage society as it operates under the three main globally operating sects (which, contextually, is mostly relevant in that a apostate archmage would probably know the Diamond and the Free Council frown on archmages participating directly in their society while the Iron Pyramid expects archmages maintaining loyalty to continue to act in their capacity as actors for the Throne) is vanishingly small.

You may decide to never use Amazon or have minimal chance to use Amazon, but it's unlikely you haven't heard of Amazon and some relevant details of operations. In the world of mages, where every Awakened is a resource worth pitching and tempting into allegiance and magic facilitates millenia old globalization attempts, that problem is exacerbated.

That an apostate does not join a sect does not mean they do not participate in consiliums and assemblies or operate under tetrachal rule-indeed, it'd actually take a concerted effort not to.

Not to say it can't happen, but we're looking at a niche of a niche of a niche of a niche circumstance.

[Professor Phobos]

I thought it was kind of a shame they established there were no Banisher archmages. Just one of them out there, working against magic, hunted by his peers, is a fabulous chronicle hook.

[Isator Levi]

You may decide to never use Amazon or have minimal chance to use Amazon, but it's unlikely you haven't heard of Amazon and some relevant details of operations.

I mean, if "you" here refers to people operating on this forum, sure enough. As a description of the world at large, I don't think it's implausible that significant numbers of people from some of the more impoverished and isolated parts of the world have never heard of Amazon, at least in any meaningful sense.

As that relates to the setting, I expect that even Second Edition does not portray the world as fully encompassed in the territory of Order caucuses, and that it's plausible enough for the occasional Nameless to pop up somewhere rather far from established mage territories but who can still trace mysteries to pursue to the heights of power and gather some overwhelming obsession along the way.

Like, the worldwide population of the Awakened is not meant to be huge, isn't it?

[ArcaneArts]

I mean, if "you" here refers to people operating on this forum, sure enough. As a description of the world at large, I don't think it's implausible that significant numbers of people from some of the more impoverished and isolated parts of the world have never heard of Amazon, at least in any meaningful sense.

As that relates to the setting, I expect that even Second Edition does not portray the world as fully encompassed in the territory of Order caucuses, and that it's plausible enough for the occasional Nameless to pop up somewhere rather far from established mage territories but who can still trace mysteries to pursue to the heights of power and gather some overwhelming obsession along the way.

Like, the worldwide population of the Awakened is not meant to be huge, isn't it?

You being a generic you.

Obviously Second Edition is not intended to be overrun by the presence of Order caucuses-the Tuscon setting is evidence of this-but in a setting where becoming a mage is a giant signal flare, the primary virtue of the character type is to see the unseen and being able to follow up on the trail of the unseen with relative ease, the major institutions of the supernatural society have been actively globalizing since their inception over two millenia ago and piggybacked off of human connectivity as well-all of that and more leads to a situation where in the modern day, even if Nameless Orders and individual apostates maintain territory and claims apart from the major sects, it is unlikely for a mage to not have a lot of second hand information about who those organizations are, the broad strokes of how they operate, and have had times where they had to participate in their structures in pursuit of their obsessions. The sort of revelatory legwork needed to become an archmage through conventional means really means that is unlikely.

THe world of mages may not be populous, but the nature of magic and the worlds mages operate in necessarily means that it's a connected world, and in that way a meaningfully small world. This has been a virtue of the Awakened since the Vinca.

[Isator Levi]

As long as it's not totally impossible, is that a useful detail to bring up as a response here?

Is it not more helpful to speculate on the idiosyncrasies of the relatively isolated Nameless who rises so far, since that was what was asked about?

[Satchel]

As long as it's not totally impossible, is that a useful detail to bring up as a response here?Is it not more helpful to speculate on the idiosyncrasies of the relatively isolated Nameless who rises so far, since that was what was asked about?

Not really!

If a character somehow manages to reach Gnosis 6+ and at least Mastery and triple-Adeptitude in the Arcana and trigger the Threshold Seeking and still has no knowledge of wider mage society — despite the actions of archmasters, who lack one of the hard limits of sympathetic magic, have a vested interest in the power balance of those peers whose opinions affect the viability of their personal vision for reality, are notorious meddlers, and count among their number the upper echelon of a world-spanning conspiracy to serve the rulers of the universe and highly-placed members of that conspiracy's opposition — then that character is so isolated from the framework they would be coming into as to be even less of a useful data point than the already highly-individualized specimens of archmasters tend to be.

"Not totally impossible" is not the criterion you want to look for in a question about a hypothetical character so unlikely that you'd have to come up so much of the scenario that you might as well just play it out and see to get answers about it. This is a question about a plot device among a population of plot devices. Examples would be the most helpful thing to offer as answers and examples of this particular thing are going to necessitate not just a character but a world-state and at least the abbreviated form of one or more stories' worth of play.

The most helpful answer that doesn't involve drafting an All-Call submission or three is "Hell, I dunno, but if you can find someone to try and run that game, go for it," which is the answer for most highly specific story concepts of this nature.

[ArcaneArts]

Putting my own answer on it(even if Satchel basically said what I'm about to), I feel it's pertinent enough to warrant the context of what this character is-such an archmage would probably not be a natural occurence, but instead the result of a highly controlled action by someone on the archmage or higher level, and with that context comes the purpose of it having been done

It's a Chronicle-hook that is separate from and irrelevant to the central question about how Exemplars and Tetrachs react to an apostate archmage, and addressing that fact also means confronting any possible misconceptions the OP and other readers may have about how apostates interact with the setting and the setting in general.

It's fine to deviate, so long as the nature of the deviation is understood. Failure to understand is how we get All Changelings Become Abusers Arguments, and I personally would rather not allow arguments in that vein of misconception to have time to build.

[Epimetheus]

Putting my own answer on it(even if Satchel basically said what I'm about to), I feel it's pertinent enough to warrant the context of what this character is-such an archmage would probably not be a natural occurence, but instead the result of a highly controlled action by someone on the archmage or higher level, and with that context comes the purpose of it having been done

It's a Chronicle-hook that is separate from and irrelevant to the central question about how Exemplars and Tetrachs react to an apostate archmage, and addressing that fact also means confronting any possible misconceptions the OP and other readers may have about how apostates interact with the setting and the setting in general.

It's fine to deviate, so long as the nature of the deviation is understood. Failure to understand is how we get All Changelings Become Abusers Arguments, and I personally would rather not allow arguments in that vein of misconception to have time to build.

Well, I'll just be more specific it's for an archmaster NPC I'm creating. His awakening somehow shunted him and wouldn't let him leave his Oneiros to be more specific, he had an astral awakening and the path from his oneiros shattered. He's talked to other mages but he has no knowledge of mage society. he only became an archmaster because it was the only way to fix himself.

[ArcaneArts]

Well, I'll just be more specific it's for an archmaster NPC I'm creating. His awakening somehow shunted him and wouldn't let him leave his Oneiros to be more specific, he had an astral awakening and the path from his oneiros shattered. He's talked to other mages but he has no knowledge of mage society. he only became an archmaster because it was the only way to fix himself.

This is the sort of Chronicle defining niche I was talking about, thank you for clarifying.

As that relates to the original question-honestly, you've got an archmage who is probably various other Archmage's obsessions. I think the conventional lack of judgment just becomes more lackadaisical.