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  • Supernal Ridden?

    Similar to the spirit-ridden, could someone be claimed by a supernal entity? Or make a bargain in a similar manner to a Sin-Eater?

  • #2
    Good question, I'm interested in this as well.


    "Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot." Sandman (Neil Gaiman)

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    • #3
      I see no reason why not. You could say that if they merge with the human host, there's some sort of protection against dissonance, but if they are just hijacking the body, being in the world is unpleasant or painful, like that angel in Millennium. "You have no idea how much it hurts just to be here."

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      • #4
        In terms of spells, a Weaving of Spirit and Prime could allow it, by modifying the way the mage summons the entity into the Fallen World.

        I believe Imperial Mysteries says the Primal Wild is a high Rank spirit, so it should be possible. Stygian ghosts and Cherubim with an affinity for Spirit probably can as well.

        I remember the 2ed conversion of the Stygian Heralds could allow it. Summoner Legacies are probably ways to facilitate, focus and better control this power.

        Proper research could lead to knowledge to summon beings that ask for this as part of their trial, especially if they are to grant a potent boon. Lastly, you could just research in an Yggdrasil (provided proper sacrifice is made) or similar Emanations with access to especially obscure lore.
        Last edited by KaiserAfini; 01-16-2021, 02:06 AM.


        New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

        The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
        The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Recusant Lied View Post
          Similar to the spirit-ridden, could someone be claimed by a supernal entity? Or make a bargain in a similar manner to a Sin-Eater?
          Both of those things are based out of Manifestations, which Supernal beings don't have. Those with the appropriate Arcana could leverage Fate-bound oaths or dwell temporarily in a character's Oneiros, but for the most part Supernal beings are metaphors that only directly engage with the world as the product of temporary summoning or from the limited geography of Verges and Thurae. Their closest conceptual neighbors among ephemeral beings are the ones that have no native Manifestations and can't leave their home plane.

          Now, things from the Astral that manage to make the long trip through the mind of geography to human thought do exist and have a definite effect on mortal physiology — see Beast: the Primordial's Begotten Mergers and especially the Insatiable — and the Anima Mundi has a consistent mysterious link to the Shadow, but a Supernal being doesn't possess people because it's a thing more rarefied than even the universal idea of a concept from a place where everything you can communicate with is part of a nesting doll of larger minds.

          Like, a physical merger between a mortal being and an entity of raw Truth just isn't in the cards without deploying a plot device. There are very real obstacles to this happening outside of unique circumstances that you will have to come up with yourself.

          Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
          I believe Imperial Mysteries says the Primal Wild is a high Rank spirit, so it should be possible.
          You believe wrongly, because the nearest thing to that statement comes from Tome of the Watchtowers, one of the first supplements in 1e and one that was written near-concurrently with the corebook. Claims it makes are especially to be taken with a grain of salt now, fifteen years and a marked cosmological shift later.
          Last edited by Satchel; 01-16-2021, 02:39 AM.


          Resident Lore-Hound
          Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Satchel View Post
            Both of those things are based out of Manifestations, which Supernal beings don't have. Those with the appropriate Arcana could leverage Fate-bound oaths or dwell temporarily in a character's Oneiros, but for the most part Supernal beings are metaphors that only directly engage with the world as the product of temporary summoning or from the limited geography of Verges and Thurae. Their closest conceptual neighbors among ephemeral beings are the ones that have no native Manifestations and can't leave their home plane.

            Now, things from the Astral that manage to make the long trip through the mind of geography to human thought do exist and have a definite effect on mortal physiology — see Beast: the Primordial's Begotten Mergers and especially the Insatiable — and the Anima Mundi has a consistent mysterious link to the Shadow, but a Supernal being doesn't possess people because it's a thing more rarefied than even the universal idea of a concept from a place where everything you can communicate with is part of a nesting doll of larger minds.

            Like, a physical merger between a mortal being and an entity of raw Truth just isn't in the cards without deploying a plot device. There are very real obstacles to this happening outside of unique circumstances that you will have to come up with yourself.

            You believe wrongly, because the nearest thing to that statement comes from Tome of the Watchtowers, one of the first supplements in 1e and one that was written near-concurrently with the corebook. Claims it makes are especially to be taken with a grain of salt now, fifteen years and a marked cosmological shift later.
            So, in other words, you find out that someone IS possessed by a Supernal entity and you've got yourself a Mystery. Nice.

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            • #7
              Mechanically, once you shift a Supernal to Twilight and give them Manifestations, the resulting Claimed would be similar to other Claimed
              • Influences carry over, or in this case Arcana (making them a more limited Mage). Infinite Reach is probably utilized as well.
              • Mana pool similar to Essence.
              • Attributes added to the Host.
              • Virtue and Vice replacement.
              • Ban and Bane added.
              • Rank as Supernatural Tolerance.
              • Start acquiring Dread Powers. Here is where it will probably get interesting, though an easy method would be to model them off Legacy Attainments.


              Malkydel: "And the Machine dictated; let there be adequate illumination."
              Yossarian: "And lo, it was optimal."

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              • #8
                Agree with Satchel’s analysis.


                “No one holds command over me. No man, no god, no Prince. Call your damn Hunt. We shall see who I drag screaming down to hell with me.” The last Ahrimane says this when Mithras calls a Blood Hunt against her. She/her (I saw the Chief Technology Officer for a big company do this so I guess I’ll do it too).

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                • #9
                  I'll go one further on what Satchel said and point out that a material being merging with a supernal entity (in the sense that spirits do it) requires the entity to cease being supernal or the material side to become supernal. In other words, it has to fall or the person has to ascend.

                  There is an alternate approach, though: Eidolons define reality and naturally show up in multiple things----all the things that present them to the world---simultaneously. It wouldn't be a particularly difficult detail to state that supernal entities can use their arcana to perceive the material realm from the Supernal World surrounding such exemplars. You could grant such facility as an attainment or as a spell. It's established that they notice magi that pay them too much mind, already, so this is a minor expansion.

                  Perhaps a Sympathy chart that handles just how aligned a subject is to a specific supernal entity would be in order to handle the perception and casting range.(A gorgon might be completely invisible to Beauty, even if interacting almost directly, say, due to its utter lack of beauty.)

                  Instead of "riding" in the sense that spirits do it, a supernal entity could simply use Perfecting on a subject with regards to itself. (provided the opportunity by, say, a strong similarity and a verge) Spells have supernal symbols attached and the caster could be the primary one in such a case. This would make the person present the eidolon more strongly in the world. (Beauty might make a person drop dead gorgeous, say.) The result of such a spell effect could be a bit similar to being possessed or urged and would still make sense metaphysically.
                  If you already are a supernal being, on the other hand, literally merging with such a creature makes a lot of sense. Arguably, many things are composites of symbols, anyway, so merging may be a strange imposition but still similar to things known. The symbol for a hunt, for example, needs both symbolism for predator and prey. That sort of event would be world changing, though.

                  (It should not be trivial to make yourself the ultimate predator by merging with Predator, but there is some interesting werewolf crossover plot in the attempt.)
                  Last edited by thenate; 01-24-2021, 05:37 PM.


                  Grump, grouse, and/or gripe.

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