Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Question about Death, Spirit and Mind

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Question about Death, Spirit and Mind

    I was having a discussion recently about a potential use of these arcana within their respective realms/phases.

    I had an idea on how to shapeshift without the use of the Life arcanum.

    Let's say we used Death 3 to open a Ghost Gate into Twilight. When we pass through, we and whatever we have on us becomes Ephemera. That should mean that our body is now subject to the Death arcanum, since it's made of Death-attuned ephemera, correct? Which means we should be able to use Death to shapeshift with weaving or patterning.

    My question was would this effect translate back to the material phase when we returned from Twilight?

    The consensus we arrived at was no, it wouldn't unless the effect of the spell was lasting.

    Not much has the option to be lasting.

    So I made an example.


    Let's say I escaped into twilight from a fight, I heal my injuries with Death, then shapeshift into a bird to get as far away as possible.

    I get away, then use another spell to go back to the material phase.

    Since healing/damaging spells are lasting, that'd mean my wounds stay healed. But since my shapeshifting is not, that'd mean I'd revert back to my original, human form, right?

    The consensus was yes, that would be what happens.

    So I'm here now to get more opinions/insight into how this would work.

  • #2
    The shapeshifting would require Shape Ephemera as a basis. So unless you are shapeshifting into something related to a cause of death, it would probably require conjunctional Life 1, Spirit 1 or a skill roll (Int+Medicine in most cases).

    Should you step back into the Material, the natural shape of the Pattern reasserts itself. Should duration run out, as per the spell's description, their Twilight form returms to its default shape. Whether damage healed or taken is kept depends on intent. If the caster was neutral or beneficial to the target, the healing stays. If they transformed the target as a hostile or deterring act, the damage is kept. Should they maintain spell control, they can change their mind. If they relinquished control, then the intent before they did is kept.

    Once given the new form, the mage can use Eyes of the Dead or Touch of the Grave (one way interaction) to affect the material from Twilight.

    Alternatively, they can use a spell akin to Revenant to Manifest. Should they also grant themselves Mutable Mask, they can appear unchanged while doing so.
    Last edited by KaiserAfini; 02-09-2021, 12:35 PM.


    New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

    The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
    The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
      The shapeshifting would require Shape Ephemera as a basis. So unless you are shapeshifting into something related to a cause of death, it would probably require conjunctional Life 1, Spirit 1 or a skill roll (Int+Medicine in most cases).
      Why Life 1 or Spirit 1? Wouldn't it be Life 3 or Spirit 3?

      That said, Ephemera are pretty malleable, and I'm sure there's more than a few bird-shaped psychopomps.


      Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

        Why Life 1 or Spirit 1? Wouldn't it be Life 3 or Spirit 3?

        That said, Ephemera are pretty malleable, and I'm sure there's more than a few bird-shaped psychopomps.
        In this case, I was thinking that because you just need to Know how to shape the ephemera into a simulacrum, rather than create biochemical changes. Although Geist did mention there are ghost animals in the Underworld, so perhaps even that is not required.
        Last edited by KaiserAfini; 02-09-2021, 02:33 PM.


        New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

        The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
        The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post

          In this case, I was thinking that because you just need to Know how to shape the ephemera into a simulacrum, rather than create biochemical changes. Although Geist did mention there are ghost animals in the Underworld, so perhaps even that is not required.
          Ah... I'd say that'd just be a separate Knowing spell, personally, but I see where you're going with it.

          For the skill roll I'd think Int + Animal Ken (to know how to craft it) or Int + Crafting (to... craft it) could be potential rolls required.

          To me the question comes down to whether Death can grant winged flight on its own. I want to say "yes," because Strix and Vampires with Protean, but you could argue Life would be required for Mage magic (which would require Life 3).


          Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

          Comment


          • #6
            Moving into twilight doesn't change the fundamental change the nature of your pattern. It is still life aspected, you'd still need life to heal or shapeshift. At best you could use death to kill diseases, halt poisons and stop bleeding but that wouldn't patch you up. You couldn't shapeshift with ephemera but you could use it to make a disguise in twilight.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
              To me the question comes down to whether Death can grant winged flight on its own. I want to say "yes," because Strix and Vampires with Protean, but you could argue Life would be required for Mage magic (which would require Life 3).
              I would argue that just because a vampire is using one of their powers it doesn't mean the power itself is fundamentally based on Death. I doubt you'd argue that Death can replicate Dominate or Majesty.
              Strix are capable of flight, but I would not call it winged flight. This is because they're mostly amorphous blobs of intangible smoke and darkness (that generally only look like owls when being still or using (a) specific power(s). But turning into intangible smoke and darkness is very much like turning into intangible shadows, which is something we definitely can do with Death 4.

              Shape Ephemera (Death 2) already shows that we can freely reshape Death aligned ephemera using only Death. There's no reason to assume it doesn't work on a material being in Twilight (or in the Underworld), especially considering that the listed Withstand trait is Stamina which no naturally occurring ephemeral entities have. Doing more complex changes than what Shape Ephemera allows should definitely be possible using a higher Practice. We also don't need to care about whether the wings are anatomically correct and functional since gravity in Twilight follows the rule of "if it looks like it should be able to fly, it can fly".


              Bloodline: The Stygians
              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                I would argue that just because a vampire is using one of their powers it doesn't mean the power itself is fundamentally based on Death. I doubt you'd argue that Death can replicate Dominate or Majesty.
                If a Mage were to attempt to replicate the effects of Protean on a Vampire it would be a Death spell; replicating Majesty and Dominate are both Mind. I'm going solely off of how a Mage would duplicate the effect, not trying to shoehorn Vampire powers into specific Arcana, per se.


                Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
                  If a Mage were to attempt to replicate the effects of Protean on a Vampire it would be a Death spell; replicating Majesty and Dominate are both Mind. I'm going solely off of how a Mage would duplicate the effect, not trying to shoehorn Vampire powers into specific Arcana, per se.
                  Why is Protean Death and Majesty/Dominate Mind? Duplicating Protean should absolutely be Life if other Disciplines doesn't need to be Death. Animals and metamorphosis are both listed in the purview of Life. You probably need conjunctional Death if duplicating Protean on an undead body because it's a corpse, but that's because the nature of the subject rather than the nature of the power you're duplicating.
                  (Not that outright duplicating other splats' powers is a thing mages should be able to do. They can absolutely recreate the effects using their own spells, but not the actual powers.)


                  Bloodline: The Stygians
                  Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                  Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                    Why is Protean Death and Majesty/Dominate Mind? Duplicating Protean should absolutely be Life if other Disciplines doesn't need to be Death. Animals and metamorphosis are both listed in the purview of Life. You probably need conjunctional Death if duplicating Protean on an undead body because it's a corpse, but that's because the nature of the subject rather than the nature of the power you're duplicating.
                    (Not that outright duplicating other splats' powers is a thing mages should be able to do. They can absolutely recreate the effects using their own spells, but not the actual powers.)
                    Because Vampires are dead things, but still have Minds: thus affecting their bodies is Death, but Mind effects are still Mind. You could argue that Protean would actually be Death + Life for a Mage to replicate; but trying to say that affecting the Undead body of a Vampire needing Death is the same as saying that Majesty and Dominate should need Death is silly.


                    Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
                      Because Vampires are dead things, but still have Minds: thus affecting their bodies is Death, but Mind effects are still Mind.
                      Protean works identical on both dead and living bodies. See ghouls. Since the state of the subject doesn't matter for Protean, I look to the effects. Dots two through four are about bodily transformation and animals which falls squarely within Life. (Dot one and five does not grant winged flight so I didn't address them in my previous posts since that's what this tangent was about.)

                      Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post
                      You could argue that Protean would actually be Death + Life for a Mage to replicate; but trying to say that affecting the Undead body of a Vampire needing Death is the same as saying that Majesty and Dominate should need Death is silly.
                      Luckily that's not what I said at all, and I even brought up that exact point: "You probably need conjunctional Death if duplicating Protean on an undead body because it's a corpse, but that's because the nature of the subject rather than the nature of the power you're duplicating."


                      Bloodline: The Stygians
                      Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                      Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tessie View Post

                        Protean works identical on both dead and living bodies. See ghouls. Since the state of the subject doesn't matter for Protean, I look to the effects. Dots two through four are about bodily transformation and animals which falls squarely within Life. (Dot one and five does not grant winged flight so I didn't address them in my previous posts since that's what this tangent was about.)



                        Luckily that's not what I said at all, and I even brought up that exact point: "You probably need conjunctional Death if duplicating Protean on an undead body because it's a corpse, but that's because the nature of the subject rather than the nature of the power you're duplicating."
                        I guess I was missing your point, then, sorry. I wasn't trying to classify Protean, I was trying to classify a Mage duplicating Protean-esque effects on a Vampire; as I mentioned in my post on the subject I could see the effects of Protean being Life, too.


                        Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I feel as though the Death Arcanum's capacity to reshape dead and undead bodies is still limited within certain aesthetics of Death. So you can alter the apparent or real nature of a corpse insofar as what made it a corpse or how far along in the process it is, but not change it from one human form to another, let alone turn a human body into an animal one. I don't think Life would do that alone on something no longer living, but it would be where the essential idea of such transformation lives, and just needs some Death to help calibrate the targeting.

                          Mind, taking about replicating Protean in either event is a bit odd when there's more to that than turning into animals. I wouldn't expect Death alone to give claws imbued with malefic power, or certainly to turn one into a self-directed mist.

                          Still, as a shorthand for "turn vampires into animals", I've made my case for that.

                          Provisionally though; I'd revise a bit if I learned there was a published spell that actually does hide human corpses as other humans or animals.


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            Provisionally though; I'd revise a bit if I learned there was a published spell that actually does hide human corpses as other humans or animals.
                            Corpse Mask


                            Bloodline: The Stygians
                            Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                            Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I know what it's called, is it described as making changes that dramatic or isn't it?


                              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                              Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X