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  • Nuclear explosions and Twilight/Shadow

    Greetings,

    We are running an adventure, and we are facing a small nuclear device about to detonate, we are all Disciples, we are considering:

    1. Fate 3. Curse the hell out of the bomb to make it malfunction i.e. not explode. We are worried that it won't be enough.
    2. Time 3. Weigh of Years until doesn't work anymore. We consider that it might make it blow faster.
    3. Time 3 + Fate 3. Shifting Sands back right before the bomb is activated, and THEN Weight of Years/Curse until it doesn't work anymore.
    4. Mind 3. Become smarter and learn enough Crafts/Science so we can disable it. This might not be fast enough and/or possible (impossible to disable).
    5. Mind 3 + Fate 3. Combine option 1 and 4, curse the machine AND bless the one doing the disabling.
    6. Death 3. Send it into Twilight and let it blow. We have no idea what will happen to the material world.
    7. Spirit 3. Send it into Shadow and let it blow. It will certainly have effects, we dont know which ones... But spirits can reform, humans can't.



    And now we are discussing what will happen if we use options 6 and 7. Any ideas what will happen in those scenarios? Actually, what do you think will happen in each scenario.
    Last edited by lbeaumanior; 02-09-2021, 03:50 PM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
    Fate 3. Curse the hell of the bomb and make it malfunction i.e. not explode. We are worried that it won't be enough.
    That sounds like a good idea, there are lots of ways that nuclear weapons can fail.

    Time 3. Weigh of Years until doesn't work anymore. We consider that it might make it blow faster.
    Probably depends on how hard your GM is. Like, it's technically an attack spell with specific mechanical effects, but it seems reasonable that you could use the effect to cause the explosives in the device to fail. I gather explosives have a lifespan.

    Time 3 + Fate 3. Shifting Sands back right before the bomb is activated, and THEN Weight of Years/Curse until it doesn't work anymore.
    I don't understand what the plan is here.

    Mind 3. Become smarter and learn enough Crafts/Science so we can disable it. This might not be fast enough and/or possible (impossible to disable).
    You've got this one covered.

    Mind 3 + Fate 3. Combine option 1 and 4, curse the machine AND bless the one doing the disabling.
    No reason not to.

    Death 3. Send it into Twilight and let it blow. We have no idea what will happen to the material world.
    Spirit 3. Send it into Shadow and let it blow. It will certainly have effects, we dont know which ones... But spirits can reform, humans can't.
    I think these two are so heavily dependant on your GM, I'm not sure what to say. They don't sound great.


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    • #3
      Option 3 uses time travel to a time before the bomb is activated and then use Time/Fate attacks to damage it, so no risk of accelerating the activation.
      Last edited by lbeaumanior; 02-09-2021, 04:16 PM.

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      • #4
        Firstly, my guess is that setting off a nuke in the Shadow would create a Barrens covering at least the entire blast radius. Barrens are detailed in the Werewolf core book page 76, basically an area of the Shadow completely stripped of essence.
        Secondly, I would have any spirits that survive the explosion, and/or were just on the periphery, and/or spend too much time in the irradiated area, become radiation-Magath. This would cause a lot of problems as the spirits go crazy and start trying to irradiate everything.
        And that’s probably just the tip of the iceberg. Long story short, I’d have the local Shadow become a very very dangerous place.

        That said, according to my admittedly cursory knowledge of nuclear weapons, it is, in fact, extremely difficult to create the runaway reaction needed for the detonation. Any tampering with the device should render incapable of exploding. All you need to do is have the reactants be mistimed or misplace by a millimeter, Fate 3 or Time 3 should be quite sufficient.
        Last edited by Scriptorian; 02-09-2021, 05:30 PM.


        The longer I study science the more I am convinced that it is functionally indistinguishable from what our ancestors would refer to as sorcery. And I would know, being both scientist and sorcerer.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
          Option 3 uses time travel to a time before the bomb is activated and then use Time/Fate attacks to damage it, so no risk of accelerating the activation.
          Ah, I see. Yeah, I don't think it matters. It seems pretty clear that the spell ages the material in a general sense, not the literal future of the device. If you want to play it safe, age some of the components instead of the whole thing. Maybe use the Mind 3 plan to get access to interior of the device and know what component to age.

          That said, according to my admittedly cursory knowledge of nuclear weapons, it is, in fact, extremely difficult to create the runaway reaction needed for the detonation.
          That was my understanding too.

          What kind of device is it? Like, is it a professionally produced weapon built to standardised specs, or something someone built in their garage?

          Come to think of it, do you know if it's an actual nuclear weapon capable of a runaway reaction or is it just an explosive device with some radioactive material attached?


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          • #6
            We had a very crazy encounter with an Ukrainian or Russian (we are not sure) supernatural creature, he calls himsellf Oleg and seems to be a Claimed by a nuclear-conflict magath (he unsettles people and radioactive effects follow him around).

            He traffics on weapons, so we are sure this is a real (if antiquated) nuclear military device.

            We are planning to Postcognition his whole timeline (hell, I want to know the toothpaste brand his great-grandfather used as a child) but now we have pressing issues.
            Last edited by lbeaumanior; 02-09-2021, 05:23 PM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
              But spirits can reform, humans can't.
              Most would not likely be able to reform from this. When a spirit is killed, it discorporates and finds someplace Resonant with it to get some Essence. Like a house spirit would go to its relevant house location and hibernate in dormancy. If you're doing more and more damage to it here, and at this point everything would bleed over to aggravated, a nuclear blast would do so much damage that these spirits would likely die their final death and the area would become barren of any depth.

              Basically, in single combat they 'die' and reform in a safe place. In a nuclear blast there is little 'safe place' to be found.

              That said, everything that goes into the Shadow turns into ephemera, and it may not work as a nuclear device at that point, ephemera not having atoms to split. Or it might work too well, being the very essence of a weapon of mass destruction.
              Last edited by nofather; 02-09-2021, 05:24 PM.

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              • #8
                There's also the issue of losing one Essence per aggravated damage taken. If they don't have any Essence left they just die rather than discorporate. Enough overkill will outright kill a spirit regardless of where it would normally reform.


                Bloodline: The Stygians
                Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
                  (he unsettles people and radioactive effects follow him around).
                  Hmmm...

                  He traffics on weapons, so we are sure this is a real (if antiquated) nuclear military device.
                  Okay, well that should make it easier. As Scriptorian said, they degrade over time, even if it's just the condition of the electronics or the explosive components. There's probably a reasonable chance it won't even detonate on it's own.


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                  • #10
                    Considering the supernatural nature of the antagonist (especially if it's a spirit), I wouldn't count on it not having at the very least restored the bomb's functionality to its full potential.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                    • #11
                      A couple of possible solutions:

                      1- Coaxing the Spirits: Disarm or turn off. Simple and not messy.
                      2- Fate 2: Guess what wires to cut or code to input in order to disarm it, either via a variation of Lucky Number or Inspired + Stoic
                      3- Mind, Fate or Spirit Sight or to get an idea of what parts were made with the thought, intent or feel of a safety measure
                      4- Temporal Summon the bomb to a deactivated point, figure out the disposal details at leisure
                      5- Fate 2 and Time 1 to get an optimal shifting the odds to someone who can help. Supplement with using their phones alongside Lucky Number to hopefully contact a Space mage or passing bomb defusing squad
                      6- A Knowing of Death lets you find the best way to dismantle it, Decay finishes off the key components. You don't need to figure out how its built, just how to break it, Death's mastery of entropy outshines Mind in this field by a landslide.
                      7- Use Fate 3 to Weave it into a weapon that can only explode if someone writes a specific High Speech rune upon it, watch it fizzle out at the last second.
                      8- Veil of Moments to utterly stop the countdown.
                      9- Send them into Death Twilight, pull them back, use a Death or Time spell to destroy the Durability 1 ephemeral construct easily.
                      10- Goetic summon a bomb defuser goetia from the Temenos. Reach intensive, but effective.

                      Hope those help
                      Last edited by KaiserAfini; 02-09-2021, 07:00 PM.


                      New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                      The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                      The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                      • #12
                        If it's a small nuclear device then it's a fission bomb.

                        Use Death 3 to make the separate radioactive masses decay a little lot a bit before the device goes off, when the device rams them together there won't be enough for critical mass to be reached and no cascade effect will occur; the timing to properly achieve critical mass and the amount of radioactive material necessary to do so is actually pretty tight.


                        Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Michael View Post
                          There's probably a reasonable chance it won't even detonate on it's own.
                          That seems like a very odd scenario for the Storyteller of a game at play to develop.


                          I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                          Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            That seems like a very odd scenario for the Storyteller of a game at play to develop.
                            It is a specifically-addressed possible outcome of the one published scenario I know of in this franchise that involves a small nuclear device.

                            Which is especially relevant because I have a sneaking suspicion Oleg is the same Oleg who is an example character in the same gameline as that scenario comes from. Call it a hunch.

                            Ibeaumanior, out of curiosity, is your game set in a real-world city like Detroit or Boston or New Orleans, by any chance?


                            Resident Lore-Hound
                            Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Satchel View Post
                              It is a specifically-addressed possible outcome of the one published scenario I know of in this franchise that involves a small nuclear device.
                              What is the point of that?

                              By which I mean, why would it be written as a possibility?

                              It seems to me like less of an engaging dramatic and gameplay device and more like something between a bit of an excess in simulationism and giving a Storyteller the opportunity to be a bit of a smartarse.


                              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                              Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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