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How To: Coal to Diamond

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  • How To: Coal to Diamond

    Or graphite, fullerenes, or whatever other allotrope. Would Ruling be enough, or would Weaving be required to change an element from one allotrope to another?

  • #2
    Originally posted by LadyLens View Post
    Or graphite, fullerenes, or whatever other allotrope. Would Ruling be enough, or would Weaving be required to change an element from one allotrope to another?
    Transforming something to something else would be Weaving. It doesn't matter if it's a close substitute. Magic doesn't really care that you're trying to change something to a close representation just that you're trying to change something.

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    • #3
      Wouldn't Weaving only change stuff like the shape of your coal or, say, the temperature it ignites at, and it requires Patterning to fully transform substance?


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
        Wouldn't Weaving only change stuff like the shape of your coal or, say, the temperature it ignites at, and it requires Patterning to fully transform substance?
        You're correct. It is patterning. I just checked my book. I thought it might have been Weaving. This is similar to Space where you can really only teleport at space 4 and there's no real difference between a short teleport and a long one.
        Last edited by Epimetheus; 03-06-2021, 06:35 PM.

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        • #5
          It would require a Patterning Matter spell (aka Matter 4).


          "The universe is basically an animal. It grazes on the ordinary. It creates infinite idiots just to eat them."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
            Wouldn't Weaving only change stuff like the shape of your coal?
            Ruling is enough to change its shape, say from a hard-edged lump to a panther statuette. MtA2e 156, Shaping.

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            • #7
              Yeah yeah, that makes the most sense. Ruling can guide the form of what is present, Weaving is for stuff like how large it is, how dense or heavy or effectively burns, Patterning makes one thing into another as Stygia would recognise discrete substances.

              Ruling won't change the molecular structure of carbon from sheets or a lattice into nanotubes, but I think it would be fair game to reshape an existing structure of nanofibre into tubes.

              Hmm, we've got a spell to allow one to visualise atomic and molecular bonds, I think I need to figure out where something like Forces stands on manipulating those energies. I think it should be a bit more than nothing, but not nearly so much as to be kind of broken or completely override Matter.


              I have approximate knowledge of many things.
              Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                Hmm, we've got a spell to allow one to visualise atomic and molecular bonds, I think I need to figure out where something like Forces stands on manipulating those energies. I think it should be a bit more than nothing, but not nearly so much as to be kind of broken or completely override Matter.
                Its a bit of a weird one, generally i would say that just avoid any atomics for forces unless explicitly needed, although i imagine the usage of strong forces (as in the binding of atoms, not arcana) or similar things in a mage game is solemn except for a EXTREMLY minute chance if your in a free council focus game and the ST really likes his quantum physics. The supernal simply perceives matter as matter and doesn't perceive the supernal concept of forces in it (except say for example if it is magnetically of electrically charged), its the same way as matter and life, 'technically' life is made of atom like any other object and should be manipulated by matter, but the supernal doesn't care for our semantics. If it says that it ain't matter till its dead, then by god its only becomes matter when its dead.

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                • #9
                  Reviewing the examples in the main book, I think Weaving is enough to change one allotrope to another, given that it’s enough to turn iron into a room temperature liquid or ice into sub-zero vapour.

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                  • #10
                    Oddly enough I do think changing a material's aggregate state is probably easier than changing allotrope, even though a state changed material would, in fact, be the equivalent of a different allotrope in mundane circumstances (by definition allotropes of an element share the same state, but a state change does very much change the structure of the material). But I don't think it's so difficult that it warrants Patterning. After all, what Weaving can do (alter a subject's properties without outright transforming the subject) should be applicable on things like changing the molecular structure without actually changing any element.
                    Not to mention how it's probably already possible to switch between allotropes with clever use of other Weaving and Ruling spells by changing other properties until it would form "naturally". Making it possible with a single spell would just cut out a lot of unnecessary work that would clog up a game.
                    Last edited by Tessie; 03-08-2021, 02:51 PM.


                    Bloodline: The Stygians
                    Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                    Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LadyLens View Post
                      Reviewing the examples in the main book, I think Weaving is enough to change one allotrope to another, given that it’s enough to turn iron into a room temperature liquid or ice into sub-zero vapour.
                      It comes down to whether or not one thinks that elements with different molecular configurations count as different substances under Stygian principles. I don't think that's really a matter of technicalities of what they're made of so much as the practical matters of how apparent the differences between them are and how they interact with the world.

                      So I think the thing that is going to matter in Stygia is not that graphite and diamond are the same element but how one is soft, black and crumbly and the other is hard, translucent and indestructible. Nanotubes and other novel molecules probably follow the same consideration.

                      The fluid iron might not be at melting point temperature, but it probably still has all of the other physical properties of liquid iron, the density and viscosity and such. I think that's a less dramatic distinction than such allotropes have.

                      That being said, I do think a Weaving on a sample of graphite could be used to put it into a state where machine-aided physical processes to change the molecular configuration will be much easier, if one has access to such equipment.


                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                        It comes down to whether or not one thinks that elements with different molecular configurations count as different substances under Stygian principles. I don't think that's really a matter of technicalities of what they're made of so much as the practical matters of how apparent the differences between them are and how they interact with the world.

                        So I think the thing that is going to matter in Stygia is not that graphite and diamond are the same element but how one is soft, black and crumbly and the other is hard, translucent and indestructible. Nanotubes and other novel molecules probably follow the same consideration.

                        The fluid iron might not be at melting point temperature, but it probably still has all of the other physical properties of liquid iron, the density and viscosity and such. I think that's a less dramatic distinction than such allotropes have.

                        That being said, I do think a Weaving on a sample of graphite could be used to put it into a state where machine-aided physical processes to change the molecular configuration will be much easier, if one has access to such equipment.
                        I think you're focusing on the wrong thing. For a Weaving spell it doesn't really matter if the original and the end result are vastly different from each other; only that a Weaving spell can change certain properties. The question is, is the structural makeup of a material considered a property that can be altered by Matter?


                        The fluid iron might not be at melting point temperature, but it probably still has all of the other physical properties of liquid iron, the density and viscosity and such. I think that's a less dramatic distinction than such allotropes have.
                        You do realise that two different allotropes of solid iron would both melt into identical liquid states? Any and all properties shared between one solid allotrope of iron and iron in its liquid form would also be shared by all other solid allotropes of iron. For iron it even happens to be that in the process of melting room temperature iron it will actually cycle through three different allotrope stages (or less, depending on potential additives) before it reaches the melting point.


                        Bloodline: The Stygians
                        Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                        Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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                        • #13
                          Allotropy is almost always just a fancy phase change so switching between allotropes magically shouldn’t even be a distinct spell from State Change. Changes from one (meta)stable state to another should probably be lasting too.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Sith_Happens View Post
                            Allotropy is almost always just a fancy phase change so switching between allotropes magically shouldn’t even be a distinct spell from State Change. Changes from one (meta)stable state to another should probably be lasting too.
                            It really isn't but even if it were that's not really how magic works. it doesn't matter how close graphite and diamonds are. Turning something into another thing is patterning.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                              It really isn't but even if it were that's not really how magic works. it doesn't matter how close graphite and diamonds are. Turning something into another thing is patterning.
                              Yet turning a solid into a liquid is Weaving. It really depends on what you're affecting. If you transform the entirety of the subject, it's Patterning. If you're transforming a property of the subject (even if that property governs the shape and characteristics of the entire subject, as clearly demonstrated by State Change) it's Weaving.
                              Is allotropy a property governed by the Matter Arcanum? If yes, then it's absolutely and clearly Weaving. If no, then it's absolutely and clearly Patterning.
                              Since it is a material property I think the answer is yes.


                              Bloodline: The Stygians
                              Ordo Dracul Mysteries: Mystery of Smoke, Revised Mystery of Živa
                              Mage The Awakening: Spell Quick Reference (single page and landscape for computer screens)

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