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  • #61
    Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

    I would argue the opposite, Awakening has coherent internal logic for why a Masters in Chemistry does allow one to find shortcuts around the Practices, because exploiting Fallen Laws is definitely a thing Mages do.
    What are your other examples of that?

    Originally posted by proindrakenzol
    I also find the "well, you're pulling out science charts so you're wrong, 'cause magic"
    It's not about magic, and it's not even about being wrong. It's about the idea that it's a level of elaboration that severely departs from what is straightforwardly functional for playing a game.

    Originally posted by proindrakenzol
    just because a particular individual believes that their particular semiotic view should reign supreme over actual demonstrable fact (and anyone else's semiotic view) doesn't mean they are correct or can't be challenged with evidence (even scientific evidence in a magic game) that their semiotic view is wrong.
    That's a perspective that a person is free to bring to critique of the game, but it really is at odds with how the game itself presents things.

    Originally posted by Epimetheus
    Last time I checked, temporal stutter still has limits that don't let you exceed it even with indefinite duration.
    I don't see how it does. "The subject completely vanishes from the Fallen World, and reappears unchanged when the spell's Duration ends." You might be thinking about how a subject within a Temporal Pocket still experiences a personal passage of time.


    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
    Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

      What are your other examples of that?
      There are numerous examples in the book: Control Light lets you turn a lamp into a laser (requires you to know what a laser is, not happening in Dark Eras); having dots in Crafts makes Shaping more effective; Control Gravity can have all sorts of fun secondary effects with a bit of calculus and physics; and the more you know about biology and what's possible for a body to accomplish the more different traits you can come up with for Transform Life; and that's just a few examples off the top of my head.

      It's not about magic, and it's not even about being wrong. It's about the idea that it's a level of elaboration that severely departs from what is straightforwardly functional for playing a game.
      Then it's on the other party not to start the argument in the first place.

      That's a perspective that a person is free to bring to critique of the game, but it really is at odds with how the game itself presents things.
      That does not make sense in the context of what I wrote unless you're advocating the idea that the first person to push a semiotic view gets to be "right" despite any evidence to the contrary because that's how the game sets things up.

      Which... I'm going to assume that's not your actual view.
      Last edited by proindrakenzol; 03-19-2021, 05:57 PM.


      Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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      • #63
        Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

        There are numerous examples in the book: Control Light lets you turn a lamp into a laser (requires you to know what a laser is, not happening in Dark Eras); having dots in Crafts makes Shaping more effective; Control Gravity can have all sorts of fun secondary effects with a bit of calculus and physics; and the more you know about biology and what's possible for a body to accomplish the more different traits you can come up with for Transform Life; and that's just a few examples off the top of my head.
        I haven't read Dark Eras but there are no mechanical differences from having those skills and not having them when it comes to spells. They don't specifically apply any additional benefit to spells that can't be used in other ways. That is, yes you can flavor your spell rotes with math and physics using the academics skill but that's no different then someone else using another skill. Those abilities don't apply to magic any more potently then any other method because magic at the end of the day is overwriting the laws of physics to impose your will on the world.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
          I don't see how it does. "The subject completely vanishes from the Fallen World, and reappears unchanged when the spell's Duration ends." You might be thinking about how a subject within a Temporal Pocket still experiences a personal passage of time.
          I'm thinking of the 1e version which still only limits it to at most a couple hundred years.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

            I haven't read Dark Eras but there are no mechanical differences from having those skills and not having them when it comes to spells. They don't specifically apply any additional benefit to spells that can't be used in other ways. That is, yes you can flavor your spell rotes with math and physics using the academics skill but that's no different then someone else using another skill. Those abilities don't apply to magic any more potently then any other method because magic at the end of the day is overwriting the laws of physics to impose your will on the world.
            I'm not talking about rote skills.

            If calculus hasn't been invented yet, you're not able to calculate things like deflection due to the Coriolis effect, if geometry hasn't been invented yet you can't calculate arc trajectories at all (and you're not going to be able to just guess over long distances without lots of experience). If you've never seen the Taj Mahal you're not going to be able to use Shaping to create a replica out of ice. If no one knows that light can be collimated, then it doesn't matter how much magic you have, you're not collimating light.

            You are also confusing primary effects (which are the spell itself) with secondary effects (things caused by the spell but not part of the spell).

            Also, you are literally wrong when it comes to Shaping, it explicitly states that intricate shapes might require a Wits + Crafts roll.


            Mentats - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Mind/Forces) built around being a human computer; Thaumatech Engineers - a 2e Free Council Obrimos Legacy (Matter/Prime) focusing on the creation of Imbued items and the enhancement of Sleeper technology

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            • #66
              Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

              I'm not talking about rote skills.

              If calculus hasn't been invented yet, you're not able to calculate things like deflection due to the Coriolis effect, if geometry hasn't been invented yet you can't calculate arc trajectories at all (and you're not going to be able to just guess over long distances without lots of experience). If you've never seen the Taj Mahal you're not going to be able to use Shaping to create a replica out of ice. If no one knows that light can be collimated, then it doesn't matter how much magic you have, you're not collimating light.

              You are also confusing primary effects (which are the spell itself) with secondary effects (things caused by the spell but not part of the spell).

              Also, you are literally wrong when it comes to Shaping, it explicitly states that intricate shapes might require a Wits + Crafts roll.
              First, it doesn't matter. You're using magic. You don't need to do those things. Moreover, no one can do those things in their head except 0.001% of the population. The rest use a program like mathematica or if they want to spend days on one calculation, a paper and calculator. Under those rules no one could ever do that using magic. However, nothing I've seen prevents any mage -no matter how stupid- from turning anything into a laser. That's not supported by the rules.

              Second off, shaping's ruling says it says might. Lastly, crafts have nothing to do with science which is where calculous and geometry go and wits isn't intelligence. Currently, a skilled woodworker can do it just as well as an engineer.
              Last edited by Epimetheus; 03-19-2021, 07:38 PM.

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              • #67
                Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

                There are numerous examples in the book: Control Light lets you turn a lamp into a laser (requires you to know what a laser is, not happening in Dark Eras)
                That doesn't require you to have any idea of how lasers work, you just need to be able to know what they are.

                The idea that changes in the surrounding cultural context expands the range of what mages can conceptualise is all well and good, but that's a distinct thing from harnessing something like atomic theory to find ways of altering matter that are not governed by the parameters of the Practices or the explicit statement that material purity is a perceptual phenomenon for the purposes of spells.

                Originally posted by proindrakenzol
                Control Gravity can have all sorts of fun secondary effects with a bit of calculus and physics
                That's not even in the book, that's an assertion of your own.

                The idea that a person can be creative with how they angle a person's altered vectors would be a distinct thing from "mages can actively exploit-

                Okay, now I can see how your statement of "this is definitely a thing they do" is based entirely in your own supposition, rather than being something you're asserting that the books state.

                I find it an odd way to say something that practically comes down to "a mage who conjures fire knows they can make that spread on its own if they throw it at something flammable", and that still doesn't have anything to do with the idea that in-depth knowledge of material science changes the dots needed to change one material into a significantly different one.

                Looking back on it, I think the arguments surrounding the capacity of Weaving to make states of matter with impossible temperatures were missing the idea that such a thing is a clear demonstration that the intervention of magic interacts with substances in ways far removed from how they operate or differentiate mundanely.

                As for the cases that go back to things such as this:

                Originally posted by proindrakenzol
                the more you know about biology and what's possible for a body to accomplish the more different traits you can come up with for Transform Life; and that's just a few examples off the top of my head.
                That might come back more to something where what a mage can visualise serves as an inspiration for what their Art contrives.

                But really, adding a trait that they know to exist to an animal doesn't say that they're harnessing Fallen Laws, it means that those animal traits effectively function in the Supernal.

                The Supernal gets privileges from the fact that you can graft a functioning venom sack into a Pattern that probably doesn't otherwise have the chains of biochemistry that actually synthesize venom.

                Originally posted by proindrakenzol
                That does not make sense in the context of what I wrote unless you're advocating the idea that the first person to push a semiotic view gets to be "right" despite any evidence to the contrary because that's how the game sets things up.

                Which... I'm going to assume that's not your actual view.
                I mean, it's not my view of reality, if that's what you're saying.

                In the context of the fiction of Mage: the Awakening, the manner in which they cast spells isn't really about a view that somebody pushed at one point, it's that Awakened people made reasoned observations about how their magic worked. That in the Supernal, and through the lens of their Gnosis, willworkers are aware of principles of reality that transcend and supersede how they function without the intervention of magic.

                That a person can be made to fly without regard for aerodynamics is not supposed to be a thing that arises from ignorance, and then once discoveries about how objects travel at speed through air it becomes necessary to cast spells whose effects account for those details.

                In Mage: the Awakening Second Edition, semiotics is a matter of what allows a mage to have shorthand for imagining subjects in terms of their essential forms. The sun at noon as an aid to forming the Imago that sees through falsehoods.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post

                  Last time I checked, temporal stutter still has limits that don't let you exceed it even with an infinite duration. Also, that assumes humanity or even earth still exists in a billion years.

                  I just checked in page 189 of the core book. There are no apparent limits for Temporal Stutter short of it being dispelled, which is true for all spells. In addition, the clause set by conditional duration does not need to be reliant on humanity, you can simply set a given amount of time. This does not guarantee that humanity is still present, on the planet or that the planet hasn't been destroyed, moved or unrecognizably terraformed by that time. But that only means that, similar to all great workings involving Time magic, careful and methodical preparation is key.
                  Last edited by KaiserAfini; 03-19-2021, 10:42 PM.


                  New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                  The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                  The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                    In addition, the clause set by conditional duration does not need to be reliant on humanity, you can simply set a given amount of time. This does not guarantee that humanity is still present, on the planet or that the planet hasn't been destroyed, moved or unrecognizably terraformed by that time.
                    He is talking about the fact that you literally gave more attention to the prospect of culture drift than the continued survival of humanity in your talk about "time travel [being] easier to accomplish working forwards rather than backwards."

                    This is a setting where, without getting into vampires and mummy cults and Deviant conspiracies and the swelling ranks of ghostly Reapers, the Seers and the Scelesti exist.

                    If I'm worried about societal drift on a timescale you could measure a geological age with, it's in an Emanation Realm or an Annunaki, not the Phenomenal World as it's interacted with by the Awakened, whose shelf life is looking increasingly short with or without catastrophic apocalyptic events coming into play within the next century or two.


                    Resident Lore-Hound
                    Currently Consuming: Hunter: the Vigil 1e

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post


                      I just checked in page 189 of the core book. There are no apparent limits for Temporal Stutter short of it being dispelled, which is true for all spells. In addition, the clause set by conditional duration does not need to be reliant on humanity, you can simply set a given amount of time. This does not guarantee that humanity is still present, on the planet or that the planet hasn't been destroyed, moved or unrecognizably terraformed by that time. But that only means that, similar to all great workings involving Time magic, careful and methodical preparation is key.
                      My point was with that second comment that the earth could be a lifeless, sterile rock, that'll kill you in seconds after you arrive or worse maybe the sun is in the process of being a red dwarf due to miscalculations made a billion years ago and it's already engulfed the earth. So you're going to arrive at instant death. Just seems like an insanely stupid idea in general.

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                      • #71
                        Hmm, there are a few Shielding spells that could probably keep you alive for their Duration. Even within the scope of Time, use that spell that prevents any changes from occurring to the subject.

                        It takes an Adept to send somebody to the future, but if a Master provides them with the spell to then return to the moment before they vanished and call it off, they wouldn't need to leave and could report on what they'd seen.

                        Hmm, if I understand the spell correctly, a person who did that would still return to the point in the distant future. It's just that now they've created a past where they stuck around while also producing an account of the future.

                        In gameplay terms, probably more a thing to hear about than to do.


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Epimetheus View Post
                          My point was with that second comment that the earth could be a lifeless, sterile rock, that'll kill you in seconds after you arrive or worse maybe the sun is in the process of being a red dwarf due to miscalculations made a billion years ago and it's already engulfed the earth. So you're going to arrive at instant death. Just seems like an insanely stupid idea in general.
                          I was focusing on the viability of the spell, since it is technically doable. The necessity of doing it is probably low, but I imagine there is a situation for it, provided proper planning is done to guarantee safe arrival.


                          New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                          The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                          The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                            Hmm, there are a few Shielding spells that could probably keep you alive for their Duration. Even within the scope of Time, use that spell that prevents any changes from occurring to the subject.

                            It takes an Adept to send somebody to the future, but if a Master provides them with the spell to then return to the moment before they vanished and call it off, they wouldn't need to leave and could report on what they'd seen.

                            Hmm, if I understand the spell correctly, a person who did that would still return to the point in the distant future. It's just that now they've created a past where they stuck around while also producing an account of the future.

                            In gameplay terms, probably more a thing to hear about than to do.
                            That might work, especially since Veil of Moments fills that Shielding requirement nicely, although I had something different in mind. In the present there are a near infinite amount of possible paths, you choose one of those branches and that becomes your new present. This spell makes it so you instead choose [Potency] and then collapse their results into the present timeline. If you ever programmed using version control, its similar to that.

                            When making the time clone, one approach is to shuffle your conciousness between possibilities, which means only one can act unless you use Mind 1. Alternatively, each of them can act independently and you keep tabs of them via a Mind 2 telepathic link.

                            Drawing a parallel to D&D, you create an Echo Knight style clone with some monitoring extras and then apply Temporal Stutter upon it. There is more to this spell thought, I have been thinking about it for a while and might codify it in Creative Thaumaturgy soon.
                            Last edited by KaiserAfini; 03-20-2021, 10:56 AM.


                            New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

                            The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
                            The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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