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  • Demons and demon summoning

    As with many of my questions, this pertains to a sword-and-sorcery style variant settings. In this setting, there is a demon realm, from which demons can be summoned and to which they can banished. I’m wondering which Arcana would be most appropriate to doing such things; I’m inclined to think such acts would require combining Arcana.

  • #2
    This isn't a question we can answer without a lot more details.

    Supernal Demons can be summoned by any Mastigos.

    Goetic Demons can be summoned by anyone with Mind (Spirit is needed to give them Manifestations). There are at least two Legacies that focus on this: the Clavicularius and the Bene Ashmedai.

    Abyssal Entities can be summoned by anyone causing enough Paradox.

    G-M Demons can't be summoned at all.

    So, what kind of demon?


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    • #3
      I've never even heard of Supernal demons; the demon realm in this setting is neither the Abyss nor the Supernal, and its denizens are quite unrelated to Goetic demons. And what's a G-M demon?

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      • #4
        The closest published analogue here would presumably be the material from first edition's World of Darkness: Inferno, which presents a vaguely Christian-inspired realm that feeds upon the vice and moral weakness of human beings, and which may or may not ultimately spring therefrom. Demons of the Inferno are primarily presented as tempters who offer knowledge and power to summoners in exchange for wicked deeds.

        Inferno divides demons into earthly powers corrupted by evil (ghosts, spirits, and goetia which acquire demonic aspects) and ephemeral beings which lack an earthly aspect altogether. That book proposes that while the former type of demon can still be manipulated by whatever magic could manipulate its ordinary nature (so Death magic for demonic ghosts, etc.), dominions are beyond the power of the Arcana and mages have to use the same summoning rituals unawakened mortals use to call them from the Inferno.

        Inferno might be worth looking at for things like demonic pact rules and sample demons, therefore, but it's not a perfect fit. I would suggest, in your particular setting, getting rid of the normal Shadow Realm and using Spirit spells that summon, command, and banish spirits from the Shadow to represent summoning, commanding, and banishing your outer demons.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by LadyLens View Post
          I've never even heard of Supernal demons
          They're the Mind- and Space-symbol-beings that "live in" Pandemonium, the Supernal Realm the Mastigos experience in their Awakening and Mage Sight.
          And what's a G-M demon?
          The titular characters of Demon: the Descent, who Fell from the esoteric hierarchies of the God-Machine and its angels.


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          • #6
            Originally posted by LadyLens View Post
            I've never even heard of Supernal demons; the demon realm in this setting is neither the Abyss nor the Supernal, and its denizens are quite unrelated to Goetic demons. And what's a G-M demon?
            Supernal Demons are the Supernal Entities native to Pandemonium, the Supernal Realm to which Mastigos Awaken. Among them, Imps tend to look like brutish ‘traditional’ demons and have an affinity with Space magic, while Wraiths tend to look like spectral nightmares and have an affinity with Mind magic. All Mastigos can summon them with an Arcanum at 3 dots.

            “G-M demons” are the protagonists of Demon: The Descent. They used to be the Machine’s angels, immaculate deifacted intelligences, but rebelled and became ‘Unchained.’

            Other than them, and yeah, what Stupid Loserman said.


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            • #7
              Spirit sounds like a good choice, but I'm not going to get rid of the Shadow, which would make Thyrsus entirely too disturbing. Instead, Supernal demon summoning will require a specialized Legacy; demons can be called up by various other means, which always carry a nasty price. Banishing just requires sufficient Spirit; Spirit 3+ seems appropriate, and banishing automatically provokes a Clash of Wills.
              Last edited by LadyLens; 04-28-2021, 05:55 PM.

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              • #8
                Look, what do you want from this? Do you want a supernatural that is ok to kill because they are EVIL creatures, like d&d demons? Do you want bio-mechanical-cosmic horrors that pretend to be human? Do you want the embodiment of the underpinnings of reality at least partially of mind and space or from completely outside reality? Do you want a alien and utterly inhuman creature that people call a demon but is just a really screwed up monster? Do you want a embodiment of vice, that seeks to spread more of it’s self? Do you just want something that is called a demon? Because the setting already has all of those. You don’t need a legacy to play with the abyss, nor the depths. Literally everyone with mind death or spirit 3 can summon something mind bending and horrific.The name demon can be slapped onto anything monstrous enough. Saying sword and sorcery notates a style, but you haven’t explained what you want. The word demon is kinda loaded, and is used everywhere.

                edit: From a certain point of view, the true fae can be considered demons since they are rumored to be fallen angles. Or one of any number of things can be a demon.

                Edit the second: even things that looks like angels might warrant the demon label, especially if they are horrifying enough. I probably would call the angels from the aether demons, same with qashmallim, because I, kinda normal human that I am, wouldn’t know what they were.

                edit the third: everything in the last post is something spirit, mind, or death does to their respective creatures. Vice spirits would work, goetic demons could be literally what we think demons are, and old and mean enough ghosts don’t even look human. There is no legacy required to do any of this. If you want a legacy for it anyways, there are plenty to chose from.
                Last edited by TempleBuilder; 04-28-2021, 06:46 PM.


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by proindrakenzol View Post

                  Abyssal Entities can be summoned by anyone causing enough Paradox.
                  Summoners also had rules for summoning the Gulmoth directly. That was a time when the distinguishing feature of Acamoth was being Abyssal but trapped in the Fallen World, so when they're just the Astral Abyssal entity I'd say the same concept could be applied.

                  I'd propose that one way to have Abyssal summoning is to take the Supernal summoning procedure and allow the Abyssal taint to happen deliberately. Kind of a step below the Nasnasi; I think their summoning should be most effective, but not exclusive to them.

                  I feel as though putting Supernal demons (how does somebody read about the Mastigos Path and not know about them...?) in this role kind of skews one of the Paths and the premise of the Supernal. Unless one distributes it through all the Paths with an intent to change some of the game's tone.


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                  • #10
                    The assumption is that the demon realm is a part of neither the Abyss nor the Supernal, and is also distinct from the Shadow. Demons are malevolent otherworldly entities which, for their own reasons, seek to gain things in our world, whether simple things like flesh (human or otherwise) or more subtle things such as influence over humans and human societies. Because their realm is not the Shadow, it is difficult for Spirit magic to reach. That being said, Mind and Spirit work well for sending them back. However, there are many rituals to summon them, rituals which will work for anyone with the appropriate training. Banishing them by such means is more challenging.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by LadyLens View Post
                      The assumption is that the demon realm is a part of neither the Abyss nor the Supernal, and is also distinct from the Shadow. Demons are malevolent otherworldly entities which, for their own reasons, seek to gain things in our world, whether simple things like flesh (human or otherwise) or more subtle things such as influence over humans and human societies. Because their realm is not the Shadow, it is difficult for Spirit magic to reach. That being said, Mind and Spirit work well for sending them back. However, there are many rituals to summon them, rituals which will work for anyone with the appropriate training. Banishing them by such means is more challenging.
                      Infernal demons? Demons from the Inferno, as described in the sourcebook Inferno?


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by LadyLens View Post
                        The assumption is that the demon realm is a part of neither the Abyss nor the Supernal, and is also distinct from the Shadow. Demons are malevolent otherworldly entities which, for their own reasons, seek to gain things in our world, whether simple things like flesh (human or otherwise) or more subtle things such as influence over humans and human societies. Because their realm is not the Shadow, it is difficult for Spirit magic to reach. That being said, Mind and Spirit work well for sending them back. However, there are many rituals to summon them, rituals which will work for anyone with the appropriate training. Banishing them by such means is more challenging.
                        Sounds like Lower Depths entities. If you have the HtV 2e manuscript it references Horrors with the Infernal Dread Power, which seems like what you want.


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                        • #13
                          OP is clearly talking about homebrew demons, people.

                          @OP, which Arcana affect these demons and their realm follows directly from, basically, what they’re “made of” and what is the fundamental nature of whatever supernatural abilities they possess.
                          Last edited by Sith_Happens; 04-30-2021, 08:09 PM.

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