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  • #31
    Originally posted by Dark Archon View Post
    Yes. It does not say you have to use Temporal Sympathy Attainment to see the distant past, though - only that you have to deal with Withstand. Unlike Momentary Flux, or Temporal Summoning, or Rewrite History, which all explicitly state exactly how Temporal Sympathy is required.


    Why does it require Time 2?

    Originally posted by Dark Archon
    And that makes sense, because unlike those spells, you don't cast it on subject in the past - you cast it on the subject in the present and see the past.


    That hardly seems different from retroactive Momentary Flux.

    I find this to not really be reading the rules in a holistic manner but honing in on technicalities in mildly ambiguous wordings.

    What it even means for Temporal Summoning to target the past for the sake of maintaining this distinction strikes me as a bit vague and all; Rewrite History at least premises itself on making modifications to a person's past, but the Weaving spell is transforming the person's present self into how they were in a past connected with Temporal Sympathy.

    Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post

    Keep in mind, a mage that does not look into things would not know that sometimes a new mage is coerced into servitude for noble reasons, such as obtaining a cure for a loved one. The Seers make sure they never pay off the debt.

    Some had to convert to survive. A mirror freedom fighter found that using the patron of a Seer as a yantra was very effective against Ministers and a nice piece of poetic justice. Even when the Iron Door showed up in their Oneiros, they keep pushing it. Its close to opening and the Exarch has marked them as a potential chosen. So now they have been blackmailed into being a Seer, all the while other Seers are setting them up so the future Prelate never takes the mantle and the Pentacle probably see a deserter (the Arrows and Guardians may have them act as a double agent while being mindful of the potential liability). Now they balance their duties while searching for a way to excise the door from their soul.
    As Signs of Sorcery describes it, I think the Pentacle are a bit onto something when they say that any sympathy extended for getting involved with the Seers because they lured you with something altruistic or were the first and only option you were given gets withdrawn a fair bit when you prove willing to perform enough services on their behalf.

    Thus far I don't think we're told much about what Seer converts to the Pentacle are like, so I could find it plausible that such people might occasionally be targeted to be taken captive and given the hard sell for defecting, but I'd feel even then it's an uphill climb for them. To be a Seer is to have performed services to the Lie; what might those have been that still allows the person to be palatable to the opposition?

    Originally posted by KaiserAfini
    There are some Seers that are like Mother Talzin, The Crones from Witcher 3 or the Wyrd Sisters from Gargoyles. Apparently neutral, agents of fate and destiny that don't get involved directly.
    Setting aside the question of where you get this idea from, it raises questions about exactly what fates they're being agents for. Fate in Mage is not some generic force of causal rightness, it's accumulated from various agendas and trajectories. If a mage regards it as a transcendent force, placing themselves in the service of that is going to cause issues in the Iron Pyramid when it looks like holding a God before the Exarchs. The Ruin is very specifically about making everybody believe that the ship is rudderless and captainless, that there's no control within one's own life and that everything is going to ultimately crumble, so what's the point. That's hardly neutral.

    That being said, I do think there's something to a less educated mage having trouble comprehending aspects of the Lie related Arcana that they do not know. Like, not just unrelated Paths; the Ruin is an offence against the way Fate would be perceived by all of them, each its own way of viewing that Arcanum as connoting the driving meaning of things that is contrary to the Exarch's lie of futility and inevitable decay.

    So I could see a lone mage being approached by devotees of Arcana they do not understand and sold on an idea of "yeah, those fanatics to the Raptor and the Nemesis sure are extreme huh, but don't worry we're a more reasonable, apolitical branch of the Seers of the Throne". But not the kind of thing that works when there are a few mages who can talk to one another and compare notes about what their Sight conveys compared to how the Seers are conducting themselves.

    All that being said, I would also think that the Pentacle thinks that not every Seer should be eliminated on sight, but less on the grounds that maybe some Seers deserve the benefit of the doubt or are okay actually, and more for practical strategic purposes. The Seer you can see directly is most likely insignificant in the Iron Pyramid, eliminating them accomplishes little and tips your hand to those higher up who might bring more force to bear on your exposure. You want to follow Seers up the chain of command, identify key players in the tetrarchy, and then eliminate them to throw operations into confusion and let the Seers fight among themselves as they determine who assumes the sequence of open positions. That and the likelihood of encountering Seers in scenarios where starting something with them jeopardizes the Veil.

    For a lone Nameless, the main problem with adopting a position of "kill every Seer on principle" is that they're more numerous and well-coordinated and have no compunctions against killing that mage right back.


    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
    Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
      Why does it require Time 2?
      Because you need Time 2 to work with temporal sympathy which is not Unchanged.

      Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
      I find this to not really be reading the rules in a holistic manner but honing in on technicalities in mildly ambiguous wordings.
      I think that wordings must be clear. If Temporal Sympathy Attainment is required for spell to work - this has to be written explicitly. And indeed it is in spells I mentioned.

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      • #33
        So you need Time 2 to work with temporal sympathy, but that doesn't qualify as using the Temporal Sympathy Attainment unless it specifically uses all of those words in every spell concerned with interactions with the past?

        Is it really so terrible to need to use an appropriate Yantra and spend Mana to employ Postcognition like that (the only apparent significance to this distinction that I can see)?

        I mean, Scrying does not even use the specific wording Sympathetic Range Attainment, but it does refer to the fact that casting it sympathetically requires the use of a suitable Yantra, so what does that say?

        There's a difference between thinking wordings ought to be highly precise and determining that an imprecise wording is either intended to convey something else or else that it permits one to insist on being permitted to employ the rules in a manner that takes advantage of the supposed ambiguity.
        Last edited by Isator Levi; 06-13-2021, 10:12 AM.


        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
        Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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        • #34
          It technically states that its only for spells that explicitly call for it, which is fine for printed spells, but not very useful as far as providing guidelines for creative thaumaturgy. What I normally interpret the spirit of the idea as is that its used for spells that require a frame of reference to a point in time outside the "general vicinity" of the present (Unchanged sympathy).

          Another thing that is not very clear to me is what stops a mage from making a Time version of Create Sympathy so they can time travel anywhen they want. Since you create things without a frame of reference for spacial sympathy, as well as fate, matter and even living beings, I imagine its doable. You would just insert your current self into the present location, in whatever time you target. That means that in 2ed it may not require archmastery to accomplish, the difference is that the further back you go, the bigger the butterfly effect becomes. This means the main advantage of Imperial Practices is to make sure everything is tied up neatly, making the possible fallout much lessened. But its still an idea I haven't fleshed out mechanically.
          Last edited by KaiserAfini; 06-13-2021, 04:55 PM.


          New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

          The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
          The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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          • #35
            Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
            Another thing that is not very clear to me is what stops a mage from making a Time version of Create Sympathy so they can time travel anywhen they want.
            Corridors of Time requires temporal sympathy to give it something to lock on to, but the stated mechanism for how the spell actually functions is not "flow back along the sympathy thread" it's "Unmake every portion of the subject's timeline between the present and the targeted time period".

            It's not travelling so much as contracting the time in between the subject's current self and the moment intended to be returned to. I've said before, it's technically within a Master's power to send a very old object back in time. For whatever that's worth... I suppose you could technically bring a very old statue to life and instil it with a mission, although a lot of things you could look for with meaningful effects might bring it into scenarios that subject it to Dissonance before it can do anything, even if it wasn't a really inadvisable disaster.

            And... probably the kind of thing that alerts just about any mage who can see the Time Arcanum, putting a lot of them on course to try really hard to locate the source of the timeline danger and dispel it before it can make Lasting changes. Heck, I expect playing around with that kind of thing is a good way to have an Exarch's Ochema manifested to destroy you.

            But still, the mage won't be sending themselves back in time that way. A Practice of Entities remains necessary to alter the fundamental trait of where in time something exists.

            Plus, I'd find it inherent to the nature of what temporal sympathy even is. Temporal sympathy is defined as a subject's connections to its own past, and any spell below Imperial Practices has to work within that definition; Making can only ever create connections to a thing's own history, and not anybody else's unless Entities is used to alter the fundamental nature of what temporal sympathy is. I don't think giving something sympathy to a past not its own would even permit Corridors of Time to send it to any time besides its own past, but it might have other unusual effects.


            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
            Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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            • #36
              I was never sure if a Time version of Borrow Threads could do that, since participating in the past and having an emotional connection are both required factors. However, if you make a Time version of an Unchained Pact, it might be able to do it by inserting the subject in place if the target in the past. Such an unusual behavior might be within the abilities of a Patterning to accomplish.
              Last edited by KaiserAfini; 06-14-2021, 01:00 AM.


              New experiences are the font of creativity, when seeking inspiration, break your routine.

              The Agathos Kai Sophos, an Acanthus Legacy of strategists (Mind/Time)
              The Szary Strażnik, an Obrimos Legacy of Scholars of the Glyphs of Fate (Fate/Prime)

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              • #37
                Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                I was never sure if a Time version of Borrow Threads could do that, since participating in the past and having an emotional connection are both required factors. However, if you make a Time version of an Unchained Pact, it might be able to do it by inserting the subject in place if the target in the past. Such an unusual behavior might be within the abilities of a Patterning to accomplish.
                The best I could see for borrowing temporal sympathy would be taking somebody's connection to a mutual past. A mage might have Weak sympathy to their life before Awakening, but a sibling could have a stronger connection to a closely intertwined life that could be adopted.

                I can't see it being within conventional Practices to transform your timeline wholesale into somebody else's.


                I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by KaiserAfini View Post
                  Another thing that is not very clear to me is what stops a mage from making a Time version of Create Sympathy so they can time travel anywhen they want. Since you create things without a frame of reference for spacial sympathy, as well as fate, matter and even living beings, I imagine its doable.
                  While it's not explicitly stated, I do think Create Sympathy should require having both ends as subjects to the spell. You generally can't cast spells directly on someone without having them as a subject of the spell in some way.

                  Not that it really matters in this case since Temporal Sympathy is between a subject and their own history. Unless someone has Unmade (or Excised) some or all of your Temporal Sympathy, you will always have Temporal Sympathy to your entire history. Making more of it generally does nothing.


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