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  • New to Awakening, Seers of the Throne subgroups

    So, I am not nearly at the point where I want to buy Awakening, but I'm interested enough to examine whether I will like using Seers as a storyteller. Online wikis aren't telling me much. I think the divisions are called Ministries, further divided into Methodologies. What are the different Ministries? What is your favorite Ministry to use? Why?


    He/Him... I just Love Witches.

  • #2
    The Seers as a whole serve the Exarchs. A Ministry serves one Exarch. So the Ministries are to the Pyramid, what Conventions are to the Technocracy… but where the Technocrats are assumed to be working together despite the rivalry, intra-Seer and inter-Ministry relations are much more cutthroat.

    Currently, the four greater Ministries rule as the major powers of the Seers; the Paternoster serving the Father (Exarch of Prime and tyranny by faith), the Praetorians serving the General (Exarch of Forces and tyranny by violence), the Hegemonic Ministry serving the Unity (Exarch of Mind and tyranny by conformity), and the Panopticon serving the Eye (Exarch of Space and tyranny by surveillance). Those four Exarchs are honored as the Archigenitors.

    … The operative word here being “currently.” The ‘canon’ of which four Exarchs are Archigenitors and which four Ministries are the greater Ministries is being revisioned and corrected in-universe. Some time ago, the Geryon, servants of the Nemesis (Exarch of Spirit and tyranny by conspiracy), were a greater Ministry iirc.

    The lesser Ministries are; the aforementioned Geryon, the Horologians serving the Prophet (Exarch of Time and tyranny by routine), and both the Mammon and the Pantechnicon at each others throats for who gets to serve the Chancellor (Exarch of Matter and tyranny by scarcity). I don’t remember if we had names for lesser Ministries serving the Psychopomp (Exarch of Death), the Raptor (Exarch of Life), and the Ruin (Exarch of Fate).

    Iirc, the Methodologies are not sub-Ministries, but rather cross-Ministry organizations working for… honestly, I don’t remember much about them, and I don’t have the books with me at the moment.

    As for me, I don’t think I have a favorite yet. Each of them are lovable evil bastards.
    Last edited by 21C Hermit; 08-19-2021, 02:03 AM.


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    • #3
      See if I can think of an institution or front appropriate to each...

      Paternoster serving the Father (Exarch of Prime and tyranny by faith)
      - A corrupt megachurch.

      the Praetorians serving the General (Exarch of Forces and tyranny by violence)
      - I would say the Pentagon, but that might have another role I'm not aware of. Steroid traffickers (currently using this in Ascension).

      the Hegemonic Ministry serving the Unity (Exarch of Mind and tyranny by conformity)
      - The woke mob on Twitter. Big Tech.

      the Panopticon serving the Eye (Exarch of Space and tyranny by surveillance).
      - Clearview AI
      https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/company-b...each-1.4829200

      Others:

      the Geryon, servants of the Nemesis (Exarch of Spirit and tyranny by conspiracy)
      - Goldman Sacks (also scarcity)

      the Horologians serving the Prophet (Exarch of Time and tyranny by routine)
      - Any shoe company who use sweatshops in poor counties.

      Mammon and the Pantechnicon at each others throats for who gets to serve the Chancellor (Exarch of Matter and tyranny by scarcity)
      - A payday lending firm that charges 800% interest, ridiculous but true.

      Some Interaction: The Megachurch is where people go to for relief from the woke mob and Big Tech censorship. It's in a poor town where a lot of people owe unpayable debts. The payday lender uses the megachurch's tax exempt status to make donations. In return, the preacher targets politicians trying to reform the lending industry.

      Thanks for the info.





      He/Him... I just Love Witches.

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      • #4
        Just keep in mind that while the Ministries have… preferred forms, so to speak, the Exarchs are both transcendent and immanent. When a parent whips their child to ‘straighten them,’ in that moment they are the General. (Speaking of the General; the Praetorians are probably more like warmongers and arms dealers).


        EDIT: Hey you know what I found a list of each Order/Ministry’s creed — here’s the Ministries’;

        Seers of the Throne (as a whole): Magic is payment.
        Paternoster: Faith is an unbreakable chain.
        Praetorians: The weak fear the strong.
        Hegemon: The State is the soul.
        Panopticon: Vision is power.
        Geryon: Faceless powers rule unopposed.
        Horologians: Routine is the opiate of the masses.
        Last edited by 21C Hermit; 08-19-2021, 03:28 AM.


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        • #5
          Thank you.

          So, The Hegemon Ministry would be more interested in government propaganda.

          When Awakening first came out, I was playing Ascension. I was always hearing about Atlantis from my then-girlfriend. I asked the other storyteller in my group about Awakening. He mentioned two things. First Atlantis, so, I thought, hmm, maybe not. Second was how Paradox erases Sleepers memories of Vulgar Magick, to which I said, "We should incorporate that into Ascension so the Technocracy doesn't have to have goons everywhere.". We agreed, continued playing that way and I totally forgot about Awakening.

          I like that Pilons are untrustworthy backstabbers amongst each other. It makes sense for an evil organization and gives The Pentacle more of a chance. So, I will see if I can come up with a character from each faction. An investigative journalist from the Free Council or Mysterium versus a government propagandist from The Hegemon Ministry.

          I'm on episode 2 of this live-play series of Awakening by Occultists Anonymous: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...6YlyOU1aQTO2au

          For Atlantis!


          He/Him... I just Love Witches.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post

            I like that Pilons are untrustworthy backstabbers amongst each other. It makes sense for an evil organization and gives The Pentacle more of a chance.
            Well the Pentacle also has more of a chance considering the fact that they basically outnumber the Seers two-to-one.

            It should be understood that the dynamics of the Seers and Pentacle are not quite the Technocracy and Traditions, where the opposition has extreme control over the world and a lot more resources and the players need to keep their heads down. In a few ways, it can be the Seers who need to be discrete to not expose themselves to hostile Pentacle mages. And they're not necessarily always hostile; the Seers might have a commandment to destroy the Pentacle and several Orders have precepts opposed to the Seers with varying levels of severity, but a lot of the time outright fighting is going to be a result of competing interests, which might not come up as often as one might think. In several respects, Seers are looking to control things that Pentacle mages aren't very concerned with.

            As far as Pylons go, while there is internecine competition, there is also still a hierarchy that can be enforced from the top down. When commands are issued from the tetrarchs (Seers who have authority over members of a Ministry over large geographic areas), and possibly even from the Ministers or originating from the Exarchs themselves, all Pylons below know that it's in their interests to obey, and that can make them a lot more coordinated than the relatively lassaiz-faire Pentacle. You struggle against your peers to rise up, keep those beneath you pressed down and watch the ranks above for signs of weakness, but when orders come in they're obeyed without question (through a combination of the rewards it will entail, the expectation that such orders maintain the power base of the Order, and it being a bad idea to give superiors an excuse to punish you).

            In the Seers book, there's an example character who has been living without using magic for years, building up a rapport with the family he's neighbours with in preparation for being given the order to kidnap one of the children. Not knowing what the intended outcome of this is, he can't rule out that the whole thing has been for the purpose of just testing how well he'll adhere to instructions. The pressure that Seers are under is expressed in how he's still tempted to cast just one spell to examine his target's future and see if there's anything significant there.


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            • #7
              Oh yeah, what Isator Levi said above definitely holds.

              For a WoD background, you could say the Seers are kinda similar to vampiric sects and Clans from Masquerade, especially the more religiously bent ones. Yes, you all follow orders from The Man, but sometimes you eat each other.


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              • #8
                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                Well the Pentacle also has more of a chance considering the fact that they basically outnumber the Seers two-to-one.
                In some YouTube content about Ascension, a storyteller was talking about how you have to keep the players under so much pressure that they have great difficulty accruing Resources, Contacts, Influence or Nodes they didn't buy with background points. While I do thrust them into a story, I take different approach.

                The storyteller has way superior knowledge of the terrain and can apply this knowledge to how they run a single experienced, but not too powerful, Mage-adversary. One determined rival can seriously mess with a Cabal, even as they get more of the aforementioned goodies.

                By default, Ascension doesn't push the storyteller to maximize the resourcefulness of the adversary, because the Technocracy has to be so huge that it can respond to any Magick event that threatens the Consensus anywhere it happens, at any time, in a world of nearly eight billion sleepers with camera-phones.

                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                It should be understood that the dynamics of the Seers and Pentacle are not quite the Technocracy and Traditions, where the opposition has extreme control over the world and a lot more resources and the players need to keep their heads down. In a few ways, it can be the Seers who need to be discrete to not expose themselves to hostile Pentacle mages. And they're not necessarily always hostile; the Seers might have a commandment to destroy the Pentacle and several Orders have precepts opposed to the Seers with varying levels of severity, but a lot of the time outright fighting is going to be a result of competing interests, which might not come up as often as one might think. In several respects, Seers are looking to control things that Pentacle mages aren't very concerned with.
                The Exarchs are using a smaller proxy-force against the Pentacle from a hard-to-access dimension. They are also using the Seers against the sleeper-population to maintain the Lie. My guess is that a large part of what the Pentacle is trying to achieve involves trips through dangerous parts of the Umbra - military invasions, perhaps.

                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                As far as Pylons go, while there is internecine competition, there is also still a hierarchy that can be enforced from the top down. When commands are issued from the tetrarchs (Seers who have authority over members of a Ministry over large geographic areas), and possibly even from the Ministers or originating from the Exarchs themselves, all Pylons below know that it's in their interests to obey, and that can make them a lot more coordinated than the relatively lassaiz-faire Pentacle. You struggle against your peers to rise up, keep those beneath you pressed down and watch the ranks above for signs of weakness, but when orders come in they're obeyed without question (through a combination of the rewards it will entail, the expectation that such orders maintain the power base of the Order, and it being a bad idea to give superiors an excuse to punish you).
                A paranoid psychopath's dream.

                Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                In the Seers book, there's an example character who has been living without using magic for years, building up a rapport with the family he's neighbours with in preparation for being given the order to kidnap one of the children. Not knowing what the intended outcome of this is, he can't rule out that the whole thing has been for the purpose of just testing how well he'll adhere to instructions. The pressure that Seers are under is expressed in how he's still tempted to cast just one spell to examine his target's future and see if there's anything significant there.
                That says a lot. A Technomancer would more likely use Magick to frame the family for something, a long-unattended roach infestation, let's say, and then use a social agency to legally remove the kid. This guy is forced to forgo Magick and prepare to commit a mundane criminal kidnapping. It enforces the Exarchs' total contempt for humanity on the minion who... has to Lie and pretend to care about his sleeper neighbors. Not being able to use Magick, it would be natural for him to relate to them. Any empathy or connection to the rest of humanity is being crushed out of him by this pitiless interdimensional bureaucracy.











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                • #9
                  Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post
                  The Exarchs are using a smaller proxy-force against the Pentacle from a hard-to-access dimension. They are also using the Seers against the sleeper-population to maintain the Lie. My guess is that a large part of what the Pentacle is trying to achieve involves trips through dangerous parts of the Umbra - military invasions, perhaps.
                  The Umbra isn't a thing in Chronicles, the nearest equivalents don't connect cleanly to the dwellings of the Exarchs, and the Supernal is not a "dimension" that can be accessed by mortal beings. What the Pentacle is trying to achieve is a handful of different things that aren't going to be achieved through military action on account of their being societal goals.

                  The Silver Ladder is trying to build magical society and tilt mortal society into a shape conducive to allowing more people to Awaken. The Guardians of the Veil are looking for their messiah and doing dirty jobs so other mages can become Wiser while they steer the unworthy away from Awakening. The Mysterium worship magic as a living being and try to safeguard its hidden body from corruption and destruction. The Arrow fight on behalf of others in the name of enlightened struggle. The Free Council as a collective are built around the magic of human culture and their formative rejection of the Tyrants.

                  All of these groups are loosely allied against the celestial force that defines the world as the object of its designs, ruled over by the whims of the powerful and the fears of the mundane populace that knows of and willfully ignores the monsters in their midst. The Exarchs have commanded their Seers — the prison snitches to the reality-prison they are the wardens of — to seize the Watchtowers that allow humanity to break out of the illusions the Lie has mired their experience in.

                  Fighting that is more than a matter of raising an army of spirits to attack and dethrone God — it's a game of conspiracy being played with forces that take a hammer to the human soul to directly witness, which means subtlety is called for. The Supernal obliterates everyone in it who isn't part of a god or the guest of one with its unfiltered experience, sometimes retroactively; as the mythic descriptive underpinnings of reality, it can make your soul explode like a deep-sea fish pulled into the open air.
                  Last edited by Satchel; 08-19-2021, 06:34 PM.


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                  • #10
                    While it's popular to anthropomorphize the Exarchs, and they can send off ochemata, as the developer has noted, "the Eye isn’t some archmage sitting on a throne in another dimension, she *is* surveillence. The symbol of it." Wherever surveillance is, the Eye is, wherever commodification is, the Chancellor is, and so on. While the Seers are antagonists, the Pentacle works off the back foot in an ideological struggle, and rather than running through alleys blowing each other away they're more likely to openly try to act diplomatic while behind-the-scenes try to screw each other plans over. Because it doesn't matter if you kill the Seer who influenced a series of mortal mouthpieces striking fear among an entire nation that their low-wage employees are stealing from them and the only hope is setting up security cameras to watch them. The Seer's dead but the damage is done and more peoples souls are crushed under the weight of Exarch tyranny.

                    The Free Council is the only one that has as their core beliefs something close to actively wreck the opposition, in 'Destroy the Followers of the Lie,' and even then only the radicals are about killing Seers.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by HorizonParty2021 View Post

                      In some YouTube content about Ascension, a storyteller was talking about how you have to keep the players under so much pressure that they have great difficulty accruing Resources, Contacts, Influence or Nodes they didn't buy with background points. While I do thrust them into a story, I take different approach.

                      The storyteller has way superior knowledge of the terrain and can apply this knowledge to how they run a single experienced, but not too powerful, Mage-adversary. One determined rival can seriously mess with a Cabal, even as they get more of the aforementioned goodies.
                      Well another thing would be that Mage: the Awakening places a strong emphasis on the idea that mages are deeply focused on discovering and understanding occult Mysteries. Addicted to Mystery is one of the game taglines, and Obsessions are features of the character sheet describing what your character in particular is most fixated on. Second Edition even built this emphasis into the refreshed take on how the Awakening itself works, that the Sleeper at the time was obsessed with something mysterious.

                      I wouldn't claim to have the best understanding of Ascension, but I'd infer that for the Traditions building up a base of worldly influence mattered a bit more because they're fighting an ideological battle for the hearts and minds of humanity. In Awakening, such a concern is not totally absent, but I think a lot can be achieved just be selling players on the flavour of mages being people who might not dedicate time to building up that kind of infrastructure just because it can be a distraction from their Obsessions.

                      Part of how I conceive the Seers working and being advantaged is that you can in fact give commands to the people at the lowest levels of the pyramid to disregard their personal Obsessions in favour of things that preserve and extend the material power base, for the use of their superiors.

                      Originally posted by HorizonParty
                      My guess is that a large part of what the Pentacle is trying to achieve involves trips through dangerous parts of the Umbra - military invasions, perhaps.
                      The Chronicles of Darkness cosmology doesn't really resemble the Umbra except in a fairly superficial sense, and the Pentacle Orders do not conduct operations in that manner that the Traditions did. There's no Doissetep, no direct command from archmasters, not actually a centrally coordinated system at all. They're more like... most Protestant religions, adherents of the same ideas who communicate with one another but largely operate autonomously (and almost entirely within the familiar human world; when access to strange dimensions is discovered, they're carefully approached as objects of study more often than confidently occupied as bases).


                      Originally posted by HorizonParty
                      A paranoid psychopath's dream.
                      In addition to that idea of being coordinated when it matters, there's also a matter of how the Seers distribute responsibilities and portfolios that are likely to be pursued even when they're competing with one another. If they're fulfilling functions that the people on top know is part of a larger operation, and can fine tune from their knowing vantage point as necessary, they're still accomplishing goals on a larger scale than a Pentacle which tends to allow individual cabals to do their own thing.

                      I only recently acquired the Guardians of the Veil book, and found something very elaborating in the description of how the leaders of that Order work with a fairly light touch with the operations of their subordinates, on the logic of people who have made it through the demanding initiation trials can be trusted to know what they're doing.

                      Originally posted by HorizonParty
                      That says a lot. A Technomancer would more likely use Magick to frame the family for something, a long-unattended roach infestation, let's say, and then use a social agency to legally remove the kid.
                      Seers might do that kind of thing as well. Unlike the Pentacle, they are one where ultimately there are archmasters calling the shots, in addition to receiving esoteric commands from the abstract symbols of human oppression. Sometimes you get orders that you don't quite understand, but can probably trust that the method is fulfilling things apparent to a mind that can see into the connectedness and consequences of things to a depth that you cannot comprehend. The particular method of acquisition might be desired for the psychological impact it might have on the target, or on the family, or on everybody who hears about it. The added quality of utilising trust and the shock of betrayal might be significant. The guy's command is definitely unusual, even by the standards of the Seers.

                      It should be noted that Seers are also the kinds of people who will regard tea leaves, cartomancy, and the flight patterns of birds as conveying orders from the Exarchs to them, without any actual spells being involved at all. They're not strictly always acting in a rational manner, although there's at least a sense that doing such things does not often cause them to act in ways that are totally contrary to the wishes of their masters.

                      Originally posted by HorizonParty
                      this pitiless interdimensional bureaucracy.
                      As others have said, it's not quite the correct mindset to take to this that the Exarchs are a kind of alien overlord governing from a discrete physical dimension. The Supernal World is not really a place as such, it is the underlying meaning and essential forms of everything around you. The Unity is not a person who has a focus on using systems of conformity (and hostility to those not in the conformed in-group) as a means of control, the Unity is that very concept itself.

                      It's a concept that can communicate with people to varying degrees, but the driving ideas of the Seers of the Throne are still ultimately mystical.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
                        The Seers as a whole serve the Exarchs. A Ministry serves one Exarch. So the Ministries are to the Pyramid, what Conventions are to the Technocracy… but where the Technocrats are assumed to be working together despite the rivalry, intra-Seer and inter-Ministry relations are much more cutthroat.

                        Currently, the four greater Ministries rule as the major powers of the Seers; the Paternoster serving the Father (Exarch of Prime and tyranny by faith), the Praetorians serving the General (Exarch of Forces and tyranny by violence), the Hegemonic Ministry serving the Unity (Exarch of Mind and tyranny by conformity), and the Panopticon serving the Eye (Exarch of Space and tyranny by surveillance). Those four Exarchs are honored as the Archigenitors.

                        … The operative word here being “currently.” The ‘canon’ of which four Exarchs are Archigenitors and which four Ministries are the greater Ministries is being revisioned and corrected in-universe. Some time ago, the Geryon, servants of the Nemesis (Exarch of Spirit and tyranny by conspiracy), were a greater Ministry iirc.

                        The lesser Ministries are; the aforementioned Geryon, the Horologians serving the Prophet (Exarch of Time and tyranny by routine), and both the Mammon and the Pantechnicon at each others throats for who gets to serve the Chancellor (Exarch of Matter and tyranny by scarcity). I don’t remember if we had names for lesser Ministries serving the Psychopomp (Exarch of Death), the Raptor (Exarch of Life), and the Ruin (Exarch of Fate).
                        Psychopomp's main Minor Ministry is Rhadamantian, the Ministry of cruel, punitive punishment. Although the Exarchs are linked to the ten Arcana (and Paradox, in the case of the Gate*), they each symbolise a particular thing - the General isn't Forces, he's Violence. The Eye is Surveillance. Psychopomp is "obey or suffer forever" - in terms of deathliness he's the threat that if you disobey your religion of choice's tenets you'll burn in hell, but Rhadamantian focus on more earthly punishments. The Prison-Industrial Complex and making sure rehabilitation is a pipe dream keeps them *quite* busy. It's canon that the Psychopomp has more inhuman servants than Seers - there's a lot of ghosts that worship her, in various forms, deep in the Underworld.

                        Raptor's main Minor Ministry is Sycorian, who are evo-psych assholes, proponents of biotruths, gender-critical TERFs, life coaches to the powerful who sell them on the idea that they're alphas, excusers of evil by pretending it's instinct. They're a little unfocused which keeps them Minor, but a Sycorian Seer's project will tend to be along the lines of convincing people that evil is "in their nature".

                        Ruin and Prophet (Fate and Time) share the Kyrian Ministry, who are the largest Minor Ministry - bigger and more successful than Mammon - but Minor because of their unusual situation of being shared by two Exarchs. They're the Ministry of castes, classes, inborn wealth, gender roles, and other barriers to social mobility.

                        Ruin also has the Peirasmon Ministry, a minor Ministry dedicated to finding upstanding, virtuous role models for humanity, figuring out what their vice is and tempting them into public humiliating shame so people stop listening to them.


                        * Do not worship the Gate. Do not listen to her in your dreams. He offers nothing.


                        Dave Brookshaw

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                        • #13
                          I find this all fascinating and will give a longer reply after tending to some inconveniences happening at home.


                          He/Him... I just Love Witches.

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                          • #14
                            …… Although the Exarchs are linked to the ten Arcana (and Paradox, in the case of the Gate*), they each symbolise a particular thing - the General isn't Forces, he's Violence. The Eye is Surveillance.
                            ……
                            Aww, thought I got that with the whipping parent analogy.

                            Anyways, OP, it’s good to listen to what this guy says — the Arcana are good for keyword-ing what each Exarch is about, but they’re ultimately all symbols of oppression.

                            Sorta like how ‘Mind magic specialists’ is a quick but incomplete explanation of what the Akashic Brotherhood is.

                            Originally posted by Dave Brookshaw View Post

                            Psychopomp's main Minor Ministry is Rhadamantian, the Ministry of cruel, punitive punishment. ……
                            Psychopomp is "obey or suffer forever" - in terms of deathliness he's the threat that if you disobey your religion of choice's tenets you'll burn in hell, but Rhadamantian focus on more earthly punishments. The Prison-Industrial Complex and making sure rehabilitation is a pipe dream keeps them *quite* busy. It's canon that the Psychopomp has more inhuman servants than Seers - there's a lot of ghosts that worship her, in various forms, deep in the Underworld.

                            Raptor's main Minor Ministry is Sycorian, who are evo-psych assholes, proponents of biotruths, gender-critical TERFs, life coaches to the powerful who sell them on the idea that they're alphas, excusers of evil by pretending it's instinct. They're a little unfocused which keeps them Minor, but a Sycorian Seer's project will tend to be along the lines of convincing people that evil is "in their nature".

                            Ruin and Prophet (Fate and Time) share the Kyrian Ministry, who are the largest Minor Ministry - bigger and more successful than Mammon - but Minor because of their unusual situation of being shared by two Exarchs. They're the Ministry of castes, classes, inborn wealth, gender roles, and other barriers to social mobility.

                            Ruin also has the Peirasmon Ministry, a minor Ministry dedicated to finding upstanding, virtuous role models for humanity, figuring out what their vice is and tempting them into public humiliating shame so people stop listening to them.


                            * Do not worship the Gate. Do not listen to her in your dreams. He offers nothing.
                            Fascinating…


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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

                              Fascinating…
                              In addition to the ones he's stated here, Dave has provided descriptions elsewhere for the other Ministries mentioned in Signs of Sorcery.

                              Herodian, a lesser Ministry of the General, is about promoting the pre-emptive violence in response to the fear that somebody is coming to take away what is yours. They cover things like hostility towards immigrants or the idea of the rich preparing to hole up in bunkers against climate change (and in particular, any angry uprisings it might prompt).

                              The Nemesis has Orphean, Seers who follow the model of Men in Black, intimidating witnesses of the unusual or supernatural into silence (although like the Psychopomp, the Nemesis has a preference for inhuman servants)*.

                              The Father's other Ministry are Dolusian, who are all about things like conspiracy theories, denial of major disasters like climate change and pandemics, and general news media misinformation. While the Unity has Logothetes, the faceless and impenetrable bureaucracy that embroils people in arbitrary procedure and hostile workers.

                              And the Eye has Phemian, a Ministry focused on building up transitory celebrity which gets crushed under an excess of public scrutiny and then quickly forgotten.

                              * You mentioned Geryon before, but keep in mind that in the modern day setting, that Ministry is extinct. They diminished rapidly after falling from Great status, and what was left of them was wiped out when they incurred the wrath of Angrboda, the game's signature Scelestus, driven to revenge for the murder of his family (and members of a cult he was building trying to more openly espouse Silver Ladder beliefs).



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