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  • Immediate Nimbus, mandatory on every spell?

    Greetings,


    I am confused on the situations where the Immediate Nimbus flares, the relevant sections state:


    When she casts a
    spell,
    her Immediate Nimbus becomes visible to those with any
    active Mage Sight
    , regardless of the Arcana she’s using to cast.
    When the Immediate Nimbus flares, it causes a Nimbus Tilt
    unique to your character, with a strength depending on what
    caused the flare. If the Nimbus flared because of a spell, use the
    spell’s Potency as the Nimbus’ strength, and the Tilt lasts for the
    spell’s Reach in turns or one turn at a minimum
    . Alternatively,
    once per scene a mage can force her immediate Nimbus to flare
    for a single turn without casting a spell by spending a Mana. In this
    case, roll the character’s Gnosis and use successes as the Nimbus’
    strength. Deliberate flares like this are visible even in the Fallen
    World and can therefore affect characters not using Mage Sight
    ,
    although Sleepers will suffer Quiescence after the Tilt ends.

    Compare the Nimbus strength to any witness’s Resolve. If a
    character’s Resolve is equal to or lower than the Nimbus strength,
    the Tilt takes effect. If for whatever reason a character is aware of
    the effects, she can willingly submit to the Tilt regardless of her
    Resolve. Mages can pit their own Nimbus against the aura as per
    the “Interactions with Other Auras” rules
    ...


    Some questions arise:



    1. Does that mean that when casting spells, only mages can be affected by a Nimbus Tilt, and only those with Mage Sight?
    2. Can I choose not to apply a Nimbus Tilt when casting a spell?
    3. If the previous answer is affirmative, can I be selective (say allied mages surrounding me) or must I ignore everyone around me?
    4. Combining the Imposing Nimbus (persistent conditions on those that get my Nimbus Tilt) and the Potent Resonance (Nimbus Tilt on those that scrutinize my Signature Nimbus) merits, do I know if someone is affected by my Nimbus and can I apply the Persistent Condition when I am not around?





    Thanks for the time invested.
    Last edited by lbeaumanior; 10-05-2021, 10:28 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
    [*]Does that mean that when casting spells, only mages can be affected by a Nimbus Tilt, and only those with Mage Sight?
    Well, spells can bestow Mage Sight on people other than the Awakened, but otherwise yes.

    Originally posted by Ibeaumanior
    [*]Can I choose not to apply a Nimbus Tilt when casting a spell?
    I think not; not without using a spell to suppress it. It's not a secondary thing, it's part of how the Supernal World processes the imposition of the mage's will, so it would make sense that it's inherent to the act of casting a spell.

    Originally posted by Ibeaumanior
    [*]Combining the Imposing Nimbus (persistent conditions on those that get my Nimbus Tilt) and the Potent Resonance (Nimbus Tilt on those that scrutinize my Signature Nimbus) merits, do I know if someone is affected by my Nimbus and can I apply the Persistent Condition when I am not around?
    I don't think they should. Maybe you could square it that a character could spend Willpower at the time they impress their Signature onto something to ensure that the first person who scrutinises it gets a blast that causes a Condition, but otherwise I'd say that Imposing Nimbus is a matter of the genuine Immediate Nimbus.


    I have approximate knowledge of many things.
    Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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    • #3
      Weird, either I glossed over that section or confused the my assumptions with the Canon. I thought the Nimbus served as the "style" of all the spells, and was only subtle if the effect was subtle. Where did I go so wrong? If the tilt was inflicted by a Nimbus flare then how is the duration determined?

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Excess View Post
        I thought the Nimbus served as the "style" of all the spells, and was only subtle if the effect was subtle.
        What do you mean by this?

        Originally posted by Excess
        If the tilt was inflicted by a Nimbus flare then how is the duration determined?
        The quote in the first post highlights that rule.


        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
        Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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        • #5
          Concerning your question "when casting spells, only mages can be affected by a Nimbus Tilt, and only those with Mage Sight?", I had the same doubt at the beginning at it seemed to me useless and without flavour that way.
          On a deeper read, I figured that people with Mage Sight can perceive your Nimbus, but its effects target EVERYONE.
          Please read the last Immediate Nimbus paragraph on page 89: "While characters without Mage Sight cannot see the aura, the subtle cues still affect them with the Tilt. This is almost always imperceptible, but some particularly clued-in witnesses may note when something’s awry."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by LorenzoC View Post
            Concerning your question "when casting spells, only mages can be affected by a Nimbus Tilt, and only those with Mage Sight?", I had the same doubt at the beginning at it seemed to me useless and without flavour that way.
            The Nimbus is one's presence in the Supernal, which is the domain of mages. Seeing into the Supernal is their privilege, but it can also harm them; sometimes by the Nimbus of another mage washing over them, sometimes by becoming open to the spells of unsummoned Supernal entities, sometimes in the abstract form of acquiring information that is disturbing.

            As far as being useless goes, consider the inverse; that a mage can never cast a spell around or upon Sleepers without accompanying sensory effects that give away a sense that something has happened. What does that do for matters of mage secrecy or discretion, for the capacity to cast non-obvious spells that avoid Paradox, and even for the basic premise of Sleepers being kept in the dark?

            Originally posted by LorenzoC
            On a deeper read, I figured that people with Mage Sight can perceive your Nimbus, but its effects target EVERYONE.
            Please read the last Immediate Nimbus paragraph on page 89: "While characters without Mage Sight cannot see the aura, the subtle cues still affect them with the Tilt. This is almost always imperceptible, but some particularly clued-in witnesses may note when something’s awry."
            That line is following on from the description about mages being able to pit their Nimbus against the auras of other beings.... or even to resist the Nimbus of another mage, now that I look at it closely. A vampire whose attempt to lash out with the Monstrous Beast is successfully countered by a mage's Nimbus will experience the Tilt regardless of lacking Mage Sight, as will a mage casting without Active Sight whose Nimbus is bounced off of that from an observer who flares their own Nimbus to avoid being affected.


            I have approximate knowledge of many things.
            Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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            • #7
              Considering the number of posts on this forum and Reddit about the topic, I think that the wording of Nimbus rules are twisted, overcomplicated and causing a lot of confusion.

              What I understood about it is that around mages bizarre things happen and their willwork always leave some small marks (which gives the narration a lot of flavourful wonder). You may manipulate sleepers or create funny interactions with its subtle effects. As per the last line, you also have to be prudent to avoid those "particularly clued-in witnesses may note when something’s awry".
              I'm not inclined to read the last paragraph as related to the interaction with auras only: that would be even weirder (you can affect only those with mage sight OR creatures with aura?? Why?).

              You may well considering I'm houseruling that, but that's ok. I can just tell you to try as I do and you may experience deeper and more interesting interaction with that. When I was reading Mage 2nd edition for the first time, I watched an YouTube story played here in Italy and the importance they gave to the Nimbus really struck me because it greatly enritched interactions and roleplay (it seems they read Nimbus rules as I do).

              Otherwise people will just consider nimbus rule as a nuisance and will not waste their time on it as you can read in tons of similar thread on internet...

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              • #8
                Originally posted by LorenzoC View Post
                ……

                What I understood about it is that around mages bizarre things happen and their willwork always leave some small marks (which gives the narration a lot of flavourful wonder). You may manipulate sleepers or create funny interactions with its subtle effects. As per the last line, you also have to be prudent to avoid those "particularly clued-in witnesses may note when something’s awry".
                I'm not inclined to read the last paragraph as related to the interaction with auras only: that would be even weirder (you can affect only those with mage sight OR creatures with aura?? Why?).

                You may well considering I'm houseruling that, but that's ok. I can just tell you to try as I do and you may experience deeper and more interesting interaction with that. When I was reading Mage 2nd edition for the first time, I watched an YouTube story played here in Italy and the importance they gave to the Nimbus really struck me because it greatly enritched interactions and roleplay (it seems they read Nimbus rules as I do).

                …...
                Uh, isn’t that the Long-Term Nimbus, as opposed to the Immediate Nimbus?


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                • #9
                  Originally posted by LorenzoC View Post
                  What I understood about it is that around mages bizarre things happen and their willwork always leave some small marks (which gives the narration a lot of flavourful wonder). You may manipulate sleepers or create funny interactions with its subtle effects.
                  Even setting aside the element where Long-Term Nimbus affecting Sleepers is the kind of thing mages will generally not want and try to avoid with their Shadow Names, it's still only something that extends along sympathetic connections, the degree of which is determined by Wisdom.

                  A mage who is letting their Nimbus spread all over for the sake of exploiting it is one who is both casting magic a lot outside of their secret persona and has Falling Wisdom. Those are all details for a mage that should cause a lot of issues with their peers when they're spreading them around like that.

                  And there can be assumed to be mages who'll know the signs to look for, because anybody in the Consilium that the person has a Weak connection to will be feeling it as well.

                  There are several ways in which it's a lot more practical for mages to mess around with Sleepers just using their actual spells.

                  Originally posted by LorenzoC
                  OR creatures with aura?? Why?
                  Because auras are an area where those things can have a sensitivity akin to mages and an area for interaction. Vampires and werewolves can also sense and clash with one another's auras as well.

                  Originally posted by LorenzoC
                  Otherwise people will just consider nimbus rule as a nuisance and will not waste their time on it as you can read in tons of similar thread on internet...
                  If I was inclined to think that lots of people sharing a perspective on Mage: the Awakening meant that their perspective was correct, I'd have had a lot less online arguments and used the word "Atlantis" not nearly so often these past fourteen years.


                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post
                    If I was inclined to think that lots of people sharing a perspective on Mage: the Awakening meant that their perspective was correct, I'd have had a lot less online arguments and used the word "Atlantis" not nearly so often these past fourteen years.
                    I'm really not interested nor have the presumption to say I have the "correct answer". I leave "RAW vs RAI" debates in D&D forums.

                    My aim is to give the topic creator my interpretation of a rule that is, in my opinion, written in an unclear way.
                    In the "first" World of Darkness (where I played Vampire, Mage and Demon), the quality of content writings was excellent and I never had a single issue with their rules. Unfortunately I cannot say the same with MtA 2° edition where it seems to me that the gaming group is forced to look for errors and ambiguities in the core manual, sit and decide how to play their game...
                    Last edited by LorenzoC; 10-19-2021, 07:02 AM.

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                    • #11
                      As someone who played cWoD since Vampire 1st Ed I'm surprised with the notion of MtA being more ambiguous. I simply can't agree.

                      But as far as Nimbus goes, I do agree that the rules aren't as well written as they should. I had the exact same doubt at the exact same point.

                      My interpretation is that Immediate Nimbus only affects someone under Mage Sight, at least by default, but it is confusing in RAW indeed. My take on it is that magical style isn't something for normal humans to perceive, the game isn't supposed to work that way. You'll interact enough with other Mages for this to be relevant.


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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by LorenzoC View Post
                        In the "first" World of Darkness (where I played Vampire, Mage and Demon), the quality of content writings was excellent and I never had a single issue with their rules.
                        That seems to be a fairly subjective thing, given arguments I've seen about how coincidental magic worked (with their own specialised terminology and everything).

                        And I've heard some stories about Demon: the Fallen...


                        I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                        Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Isator Levi View Post

                          What do you mean by this?
                          Quite literally what the spell looked like, or at least the casting.

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