Do you usually "translate" spells from 1° edition?

[LorenzoC]

Dear friends,
I read a couple of nice Mind spell in the Order of the Veil order book. Unfortunately it is a first edition print so spells are quite different.

They are Inspire and Moment of Doubt

# Inspire (Mind ••) #
The mage can telepathically insert a single idea into the mind of her target, who will believe that the idea came as a fl ash of inspiration. The idea to be implanted must be relatively simple, something that could be summed up in a single sentence. Examples might include “The map I’m looking for could be behind the bookcase” or “There’s probably an alarm on that door, so I’d better not open it.” The target is not compelled to act on the inspiration in any particular way, but will react to it as he’d react to any idea: probably follow it (if it’s reasonable), possibly try it (if it could be a lucky hunch) or dismiss it (if it’s wildly inappropriate).
Practice: Ruling
Action: Instant and contested; target rolls Resolve + Gnosis reflexively.
Duration: Lasting
Aspect: Covert
Cost: None Targets with Mind 1 or greater are allowed a refl exive Wits + Composure roll to sense the intrusion of an outside thought.

# Moment of Doubt (Mind ••) #
The mage implants a brief but convincing sensation of doubt into the target’s mind. The actual moment of uncertainty is brief, but its effects linger for the duration of the spell. The recipient becomes unsure of herself, making it diffi cult for her to complete whatever activities she’s engaged in, or to initiate a new course of action. Though the sudden loss of confi dence is imposed by the mage’s will, it feels to the target like genuine self-doubt, even if it’s out of character for her to second-guess herself.
Practice: Ruling
Action: Instant; subtract target’s Composure.
Duration: Prolonged (one scene)
Aspect: Covert
Cost: None
Each success subtracts one die from the target’s dice pools on any attempt she makes to perform an instant or extended action for the duration of the spell, as she becomes weighed down and distracted by uncertainty — until she succeeds at any roll, in which case the doubt is assuaged and the spell’s effects expire. This spell cannot be cast upon the same target more than once per scene.
If the target is a mage with Mind 1 or greater, she makes a reflexive Wits + Composure roll to sense the presence of mental manipulation.

I was thinking of something like:

# Inspire (Mind ••) #
Practice: Ruling
Primary: Duration.
Withstand: Composure
Reach: I have no idea

# Moment of Doubt (Mind ••) #
Practice: Ruling
Primary: Potency.
Withstand: Resolve
Changes: Obviously the penalty to dice is according to Potency instead of casting successes
Reach:
(+1) Remove the sentence about Mages with Mind1
(+1) Remove the "once per scene" per target


What do you think? Are they unbalanced and should I forget about them?
Thanks!

[21C Hermit]

I do sometimes translate 1E spells; they’re scattered in the Creative Thaumaturgy thread, and my Legacy homebrew threads.

That said, at a cursory glance the two examples look like they could be a creative usage of the Psychic Domination and/or Emotional Urging spells. Have I missed something?

[LorenzoC]

I think of Inspire as a more subtle manipulation, much like some Space spells can do messing with people's sympathies. Psychic Domination is the most "vulgar" 2nd ed. spell, saying in the description that the target knows that the "commands" comes from someone else.

Moment of Doubt reminded me of a Fate spell that could buff X rolls of X dice per Potency. Emotional Urging is quite close, but to social "doors" situations only.

[Isator Levi]

Inspire actually strikes me more as a Compelling effect; pointing the subject in a direction a bit without exerting gross control. I feel as though Reach might either give the implanted idea a bit more definition or allow a bit more influence on how the subject acts upon it.

Let's see... looking at the Creative Thaumaturgy guidelines, I think the way to systemize that is being able to give a target in a suitable state of mind a Condition to represent what they're being guided towards doing. That, I think, would cover the original degrees between reasonable and inappropriate; if the spell is cast on a person under mundane circumstances it's just an intrusive thought or passing fancy (possibly still useful tactically), but if they're already a bit riled up they're inspired to go over the edge.

Moment of Doubt feels like it would be Ruling by virtue of imposing what sounds like a Condition, particularly how it can resolve itself if the person succeeds at a thing.

The whole line about mages with the Mind Arcanum getting to make reflexive rolls to sense that they're being targeted should be dropped. It's inconsistent with the general rules now, and a bit extraneous when there are things like Mage Sight to alert them to possibly hostile spells, and the potential to use other magic to detect and counter tampering.

at a cursory glance the two examples look like they could be a creative usage of the Psychic Domination and/or Emotional Urging spells. Have I missed something?

Even accounting for the stated point that something like Psychic Domination is the kind of spell that alerts the subject to how they're not in control of the action they perform, I think there's something sufficiently distinct and evocative to the image of magic that just floats an idea into a person's head and lets it find a place as though they thought of it themselves. A push or a hint, rather than a command.

Emotional Urging on the other hand is, well, exactly what it sounds like. Shifting a person from a chill state of mind to being giddy, anxious, or furious, maybe that can affect how a person acts upon an idea that they already have in mind, but I can't really see a creative way to apply it such that it would produce the kind of precise effects suggested in the original spell write-up or anything else that a name like Inspire might imply.

For Moment of Doubt, while I guess there could be something similar in Ruling a person into a general state of uncertainty, I think there's something enjoyable about a spell to have a more precise result of making a person feel doubtful about what they're engaged in. A sense of going beyond mood and into an actual forced focus on the details of how something can go wrong.

Hmm, that actually suggests a Reach effect to me; that the default spell would force the subject to focus on their own anxieties, while Reaching could let the mage define the person's fears of how the endeavour will fail.

With that in mind, it makes me feel as though a Condition created by the spell should be attached to a particular task of the character, maybe even an Aspiration; a want that they become dragged down over, rather than a general sense of failure penalising all that they do.

That one leads into my issue with imposing a general penalty; not actually an effect beyond a two-dot spell (Exceptional Luck's hexes can do such), but I think it goes a bit beyond the image of the mood that the spell creates. I think it's more resonant to be a spell that takes the wind out of a subject's sails concerning something they were otherwise enthusiastic about.

[MovingMind]

Some ideas for Moment of Doubt:
- Remove dice tricks from chosen skill (10 again, 9 again, rote action) - Compelling
- Upgrade all failures with skill to dramatic failures - Compelling
- Spend willpower to take actions with a particular skill - Fraying (This is Beaten down tilt, rejigged to affect the chosen skill, rather than violent skill)

[EW-Matias]

There's a Life spell that let's you give the subject a Cobdition (It's supposed to be limited to the kind of stuff you can do by messing with their bodies). Make a Mind version of that same spell, and that should cover botj of these by giving them Inspired or something to reflect their lack of cobfidence (the actual rules for that can vay depending the situation, they work similar to Swooned, Leveraged or Shaken, or maybe make their dice only score successes on 10, or other stuff like that).