[2e] Legacy Optional Attaiments

[lbeaumanior]

Greetings,

I have a couple of questions regarding optional attainments:

1. Lets say I enter a legacy with optional attainments, but I lack the arcana for those when acquiring the main attainments. If I get the necessary arcana later, do I automatically get the optional attainment or do I have to pay experience for it?
2. Does the experience refund of legacies apply to optional Attainments?

Thanks,

[Isator Levi]

I think possibilities for an optional part of an Attainment has possibilities beyond the suggested scenario that make it messy and weird in a way that I wouldn't go with it.

Although even if I would, I'd think it would be a strange scenario for a person to select a praxis that they assume will be immediately refunded.

Incidentally, I wouldn't personally go with the idea that a character could ever get two Attainments in a row, even if they fulfilled the mechanical requirements. Even learning the Legacy from something inanimate, I'd hold advancement as requiring a bit of time to apply each level of initiation to be spiritually prepared for the next.

[lbeaumanior]

Any answers on my last post?
Tessie Isator Levi EndlessKng ???

Sorry for the thread necromancy, but this will be relevant soon on my game.

[lbeaumanior]

Tessie Isator Levi proindrakenzol EndlessKng

The scenario plays better with the example of the Eleventh Question. Lets do a step-by-step analysis.

For this scenario I am a Mastigos, Gnosis 2, Mind 2, Space 2, Time 2, Matter 1; my two Praxes granted by Gnosis are: "Perfect Timing", "Postcognition"; no other Praxes.

1. I enter the Legacy by expending 1 exp and get the first attainment.
2. As I have Matter 1, I also get the optional first attainment.
3. I refund my praxis "Perfect Timing" and get back 1 arcane exp and 1 arcane beat.
4. I use my new arcane experience to buy the second attainment.
5. I refund my praxis "Postcognition" and get back 1 arcane exp and 1 arcane beat.
6. I have one unspent arcane experience, two arcane beats, and zero Praxes.
7. At some point in the future I rise Matter to 2 and Gnosis to 3. I pick "Shaping" as my praxis.
8. I get the optional Matter 2 attainment, as I fulfill the requirement.

Questions:

• Can I now (way after getting the second attainment) refund my "Shaping" Praxis?
• IF I had Matter 2 and "Shaping" as an extra Praxis when I got the second attainment (step 4), could I have refunded it then?

[Isator Levi]

Hang on a moment...

[Tessie]

By RAW, you'd only refund a Praxis when you gain the Legacy Attainment, and there's no reason to assume that doesn't extend to the full effect of the Attainment. In that case, just refund the Praxis if you want.

In most cases, you'd either already fulfil the optional effect's prereqs and should be able to choose to refund it then and there, or you don't fulfil the prereqs and also don't have the optional Arcanum high enough to be able to have it as a Praxis in the first place.
But in the few cases where an optional effect is based on a spell, and has an Arcanum prereq higher than the spell's dot rating, and you happen to have it as a Praxis before you raise your Arcanum to fulfil the optional prereq, there's little reason to not allow refunding it just because it's technically not when you happen to buy the Legacy Attainment.

Full disclosure, though: I'm fully in the camp that any trait* (that is or can be bought with XP) should be refundable or able to be reallocated; not just Merit dots. My group even refunds 2 XP for Wisdom (regardless if it's a dot you started with or bought with XP), and allows reallocation of Skill dots (as long as you don't go below minimum dots in categories) and Specialties that aren't relevant to the character anymore. We'd straight up allow reallocating (but not necessarily refunding) any Praxis that goes unused for too long even if it's not replaced by a Legacy Attainment.

*Edited footnote: That can reasonably be lost or irrelevant during the course of a campaign.

[Isator Levi]

I think it would be bad design to have optional effects be similar enough to spells to have it be worth refunding a Praxis. But if you were to encounter such an effect, as an ST I'd definitely greenlight refunding that Praxis.

As it is, I think even the base effect of an Attainment doesn't really cover the same space as a Praxis. Attainments are sharply focused where a Praxis still affords adjustable factor and Reach options in addition the the better prospect of exceptional success. Losing the latter for the former feels a bit more like a conceptual than balance thing to me.

[Tessie]

So, do you think that when having this optional effect as Praxis, shouldnt be refunded?

I think it would be bad design to have optional effects be similar enough to spells to have it be worth refunding a Praxis. But if you were to encounter such an effect, as an ST I'd definitely greenlight refunding that Praxis.

[lbeaumanior]

Despite everyone calling it optional Attainments, that's not actually true and it's not what the book says. The book clearly states that it's an optional effect for the Attainment, that can be used when you use the Attainment if you fulfil the prerequisites for it.

So, do you think that when having this optional effect as Praxis, shouldnt be refunded?

[Tessie]

Despite everyone calling it optional Attainments, that's not actually true and it's not what the book says. The book clearly states that it's an optional effect for the Attainment, that can be used when you use the Attainment if you fulfil the prerequisites for it.

[EndlessKng]

I read it similarly. The way it seems to work, at least to me, builds the optional attainment as an extension of the Legacy's philosophy. However, you require the understanding of the Supernal laws to use it. Once you have the training, the understanding of the teaching solidifies into the attainment.

[proindrakenzol]

The first question is an OR question, so pay experience or automatic availability?

Auto-availability.

Optional Effect: Some Legacy Attainments include an additional
or alternate effect if the mage possesses dots in an additional
Arcanum equal to the required Legacy Ruling Arcanum.
This additional Arcanum is almost always a Ruling Arcanum
from the Legacy’s originating Path.

My reading is that this means the optional effects are automatically unlocked.

[lbeaumanior]

I run the answer to both questions as "yes".

The first question is an OR question, so pay experience or automatic availability?

[proindrakenzol]

I run the answer to both questions as "yes".