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Purge Illness and genetic conditions

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  • #16
    Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
    Greetings,

    Does the Purge Illness spell work on genetic conditions? Lets say Multiple Sclerosis, autoimmune diseases (Lupus) or a Cancer? I would think those require a lasting effect but I am unsure.

    Thanks,
    Honestly, this seems like something that could be covered by Reach.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
      Oh, have doctors finally figured out what causes Autism and Aspergers Syndrome? Last I checked, (like 10 years ago) it was undetermined. It's weird how I'm constantly surprised by the passage of time when it's literally the most predictable thing in the universe.”
      Lets say they figured out a huge lot about it, but the complexity of the matter is just too humongous. Anyway, its enough to say that a strong genetic factor is present in every case.

      You can take a look at this article on the matter, for example.

      Oh, and they got rid of the distinct diagnosis inside the larger umbrella, as accumulated evidence pointed against their applicability, so there's no Asperger anymore, just Autism.

      Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
      The tone of this feels a bit more angrier than perhaps was meant, or if meant than is perhaps is necessary.
      It was actually the least angry I managed to get, given that a huge part of the matter was my current lack of medication, which is always terrible to my disposition, so I was actively trying to tone it down as much as possible as I was aware of being possibly unfair.

      Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
      I’m not sure how anyone owns facts
      It was an improvised expression that I expected to make some sense by context. Not exactly a "jab", but certainly colored by emotion at the time.

      By it I meant that things you take as facts in a given context may A) not be actual facts, either due to any sort of error in the data or misleading lack of nuance causing erroneous conclusions, and B) not apply to other contexts that you didn't consider before, but are applicable to the matter at hand.

      Like, in our current thread, that the matter was thought in the context of MS and similar conditions, but can be taken in the context of other conditions where the debate is more heated.

      Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
      And for monteparnas I do also have autism, but again why would that matter to the point of facts vs opinions?
      First consider my above answer to TempleBuilder and Isator Levi's post #9.

      With those in mind, the advice is the point. By talking without care about facts that elicit a lot of emotional response, complex and heated opinions, and less factual readings, you may end up being misinterpreted and causing reactions you didn't expect or want.

      And I must add, as something I went a long and hard way to understand, a person's feelings about something are valid unto themselves. Emotions are by themselves objective facts, even when their causes can't be objectively or correctly pointed out by the person feeling.

      Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
      I dont consider my autism to diminish me in the way that MS does, it is just different behaviours and ways to interpret the world, but even then it would not change the fact that I am different to the average person, and in the case of MS, it is something that has no positive effect in my life, at all.
      You don't, but other people do, and that's what makes the matter complex and heated. When talking about something, or treating it in any media, you have to step beyond your personal understanding of things and consider how your phrasing may be read by others.

      Many disabled people, including but not limited to Autistics, have a history of conflict over the definition of their own condition as a disease or not and its implications. While you may not consider your own autism under such a light, what you write and say will be read and heard by people that either think so, or that crossed with this stance so many times that they fully expect this as the intended meaning.

      And it must be pointed that deviance from the average isn't necessarily the best definition for disease, and the debate over how to classify such conditions does have a technical, medical side still unresolved. So there are facts that aren't as objective as they seen.

      I would like to apologize for the previous post if it felt too aggressive, anyway.

      Originally posted by lbeaumanior View Post
      Coming back to the original question, yes, the Purge Illness spell seems to be focused on removing microorganisms or material causing illness. Will it work with radiation sickness then?
      On a strictly technical standpoint I don't see why not, but there are two caveats.

      First, radiation sickness, or Acute Radiation Syndrome, is strictly the result of cell damage and destruction caused by high doses of ionizing radiation. It doesn't include DNA damage and other long-term effects, and it doesn't include the other effects of intake of radioactive material. By itself it means the source of radiation isn't present anymore in any form, which isn't necessarily the case.

      Radioactive Contamination must then be taken into account. Many forms of exposure to radiation may build up trace amounts of radioactive material in the affected person, being the reason why we can usually trace them with a Geiger Counter (they have this material, so they are emanating radiation). I don't think this spell would necessarily cleanse such contaminants. There is also such a thing as inhaling or ingesting radioactive material, that makes the contamination more harmful and may bring about added problems. As an example, Uranium causes heavy metal poisoning by itself regardless of radiation. Some radioactive materials are filtered by the kidneys in such a case, if the organ survives the radiation, while others aren't.

      Second, since we're talking spells, the ST may have other considerations regarding the Supernal Symbols involved. It may be that other Arcana or a higher level is required just because the ST decides the radiation Symbols are of another nature.


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      • #18
        I’d say either Life or Forces can purge radiation, not and. Same for, say, heavy metals and Life/Matter. Keeping it simple and clean.


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        • #19
          Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post
          I’d say either Life or Forces can purge radiation, not and. Same for, say, heavy metals and Life/Matter. Keeping it simple and clean.
          In principle I agree, but then the question of Symbols is a matter of theme. I do not think any ST should decide otherwise just for the sake of it, but I can't say that no chronicle will ever benefit from a separation to deliver its themes. And radiation particularly have such a history in literature and RPGs. I don't even like the theme, but if another ST wants to implement it, this is a valid question.


          #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
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          • #20
            Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
            In principle I agree, but then the question of Symbols is a matter of theme. I do not think any ST should decide otherwise just for the sake of it, but I can't say that no chronicle will ever benefit from a separation to deliver its themes. And radiation particularly have such a history in literature and RPGs. I don't even like the theme, but if another ST wants to implement it, this is a valid question.
            Themes? Did something come up in the above posts? I must have missed something then, ‘cuz I kinda skimmed it when it was about Autism (which I don’t know well about, and I tend to distance myself from such).

            All I can say for now is that I don’t think Radiation is inherently something different from other Forces patterns — it was in 1E iirc, what with Compelling Radiation being a Forces 5 spell and radiation-magic more than that being Archmastery stuff, but 2E is moving away from ‘target-oriented tiers’ as I describe them.

            Of course, if you were talking about table-by-table ST judgments, then the above paragraph is a moot point I guess.


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            New 2E Legacies, expanded

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            • #21
              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              Lets say they figured out a huge lot about it, but the complexity of the matter is just too humongous. Anyway, its enough to say that a strong genetic factor is present in every case.

              You can take a look at this article on the matter, for example.

              Oh, and they got rid of the distinct diagnosis inside the larger umbrella, as accumulated evidence pointed against their applicability, so there's no Asperger anymore, just Autism.
              My thanks. I was vaguely aware of the merger.

              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post
              It was actually the least angry I managed to get, given that a huge part of the matter was my current lack of medication, which is always terrible to my disposition, so I was actively trying to tone it down as much as possible as I was aware of being possibly unfair.
              I thank you for the attempt. I too, know the struggle to reign in a maelstrom of emotion. Words poorly chosen in anger, can’t be taken back. A lesson I wish I had learned sooner. The post wasn’t too angry, all considered, but I felt anger wasn’t going to help. I hope I didn’t cause any offense.

              As for the rest of your post, it is extremely well written. It resonates with me.

              I again thank you for taking the time to try and fully work out your differences with another. Far too often I have seen a simple misunderstanding blossom into the same conflicts, again and again, especially on the internet. (If you think my standards for people are low, well people keep disappointing me.)

              Originally posted by monteparnas View Post


              On a strictly technical standpoint I don't see why not, but there are two caveats.

              First, radiation sickness, or Acute Radiation Syndrome, is strictly the result of cell damage and destruction caused by high doses of ionizing radiation. It doesn't include DNA damage and other long-term effects, and it doesn't include the other effects of intake of radioactive material. By itself it means the source of radiation isn't present anymore in any form, which isn't necessarily the case.

              Radioactive Contamination must then be taken into account. Many forms of exposure to radiation may build up trace amounts of radioactive material in the affected person, being the reason why we can usually trace them with a Geiger Counter (they have this material, so they are emanating radiation). I don't think this spell would necessarily cleanse such contaminants. There is also such a thing as inhaling or ingesting radioactive material, that makes the contamination more harmful and may bring about added problems. As an example, Uranium causes heavy metal poisoning by itself regardless of radiation. Some radioactive materials are filtered by the kidneys in such a case, if the organ survives the radiation, while others aren't.

              Second, since we're talking spells, the ST may have other considerations regarding the Supernal Symbols involved. It may be that other Arcana or a higher level is required just because the ST decides the radiation Symbols are of another nature.
              *facepalms* oh yeah, people do actually acquire some radioactivity sometimes, depending on the exposure. Hmm. So I guess it depends on whether poisons that remain in the body for long periods of time would need Matter to purge. Personally I don’t think so. The body cycles material constantly, it makes sense for Life to be able to handle removing harmful poisons by itself. I think the line of thought applies to radioactive poisons too. I’m going to say, still technically is the Purge Illness spell, but probably has a crazy reach requirement, that effectively bumps it up a level. (Like what Ashenrogue said.) I’d understand if someone disagreed though.

              Originally posted by 21C Hermit View Post

              about Autism (which I don’t know well about, and I tend to distance myself from such).
              Can I ask a personal question? Would you like to know more? I have lived a paltry sum of years on this pale blue speck of dust, but I know my experience well enough to tell. I can only speak for myself though, others have different tales. (It’s ok if the answer is no.)
              Last edited by TempleBuilder; 11-22-2021, 02:32 AM.


              To whomever reads this, I hope you have a good day/night. May you be Happy.

              So, I made some Mage Legacies here, with some help. They vary in quality, but I hope you take a look at them. Every one contains pieces of me, for better or worse.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post

                Can I ask a personal question? Would you like to know more? I have lived a paltry sum of years on this pale blue speck of dust, but I know my experience well enough to tell. I can only speak for myself though, others have different tales. (It’s ok if the answer is no.)
                Thanks for the consideration, but I’ll have to politely decline. Not because of you or the topic. My current state of mind is rather… static, these days. I probably won’t be able to appreciate it properly.


                MtAw Homebrew:
                Even more Legacies, updated to 2E
                New 2E Legacies, expanded

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by TempleBuilder View Post
                  I’m going to say, still technically is the Purge Illness spell, but probably has a crazy reach requirement, that effectively bumps it up a level. (Like what Ashenrogue said.) I’d understand if someone disagreed though.
                  No offense taken and I understand your exasperation.

                  On the matter quoted, I don't think it would necessarily need a lot of Reach, except for really complex situations, unless the ST decides something about Symbolic resilience for it.

                  What may be more problematic would be dust accumulated on the skin, hair, etc. Those must be thoroughly cleaned, which may be tricky and isn't feasible just with a Life spell. Of course, it would be an extremely specific situation for such contamination to be an immediate danger and yet you have no access to a proper, mundane, decontamination procedure.

                  But here we are, it would be good to have Matter to get rid of surface contaminants in the body. Nor only for radiation, but also for some heavy metals like lead, that can poison through skin.


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