The Lie and The Vigil

[WHW]

I love that merit. We based a whole unfortunate "kinda illegal but everyone thinks everyone do it so no one try to do something about it" practice on it. In our games, Mage population is much smaller than associated Sleeper Sleepwalker "pyramid" under them, and a lot of estabilished Mages wraps themselves in Sleeper Cults [the fact that we houserule Sleeping Curse to modify memories of Magic not to "mundane stuff" but to "most believable NON SUPERNAL explanation for the victim, including lower case magic, supernatural, ESP, UFO, etc] where they first carefully shape their victims worldview [so the Curse will rationalize Magic for them in the "wanted" way] and then procedurally abuse Integrity of the few chosen ones in hope they will get the Fitful Slumber Merit.

It also makes hunters, police and other investigators much less ignorant; not unignorant enough to TRULY grasp the beauty of Magic, but unignorant enough to perceive how dangerous it is.

I've always felt it's ok for non Mages to know about Mages, as long as they cannot grasp Supernal for what it is. Makes Mage even more tragic than "they just rationalize it to gas leaks" imho, especially because you can try to fool yourself into thinking that maaaaaaaaaaaaybe they are one breaking point away from getting it. Integrity Bombing your own family and then despairing that they are almost getting it, but that almost is in the worst MISSING THE POINT way anyone?

[proindrakenzol]

I love that merit. We based a whole unfortunate "kinda illegal but everyone thinks everyone do it so no one try to do something about it" practice on it. In our games, Mage population is much smaller than associated Sleeper Sleepwalker "pyramid" under them, and a lot of estabilished Mages wraps themselves in Sleeper Cults [the fact that we houserule Sleeping Curse to modify memories of Magic not to "mundane stuff" but to "most believable NON SUPERNAL explanation for the victim, including lower case magic, supernatural, ESP, UFO, etc] where they first carefully shape their victims worldview [so the Curse will rationalize Magic for them in the "wanted" way] and then procedurally abuse Integrity of the few chosen ones in hope they will get the Fitful Slumber Merit.

It also makes hunters, police and other investigators much less ignorant; not unignorant enough to TRULY grasp the beauty of Magic, but unignorant enough to perceive how dangerous it is.

I've always felt it's ok for non Mages to know about Mages, as long as they cannot grasp Supernal for what it is. Makes Mage even more tragic than "they just rationalize it to gas leaks" imho, especially because you can try to fool yourself into thinking that maaaaaaaaaaaaybe they are one breaking point away from getting it. Integrity Bombing your own family and then despairing that they are almost getting it, but that almost is in the worst MISSING THE POINT way anyone?

I definitely prefer the "'mundane' means non-Supernal, not non-supernatural" interpretation for just that reason. It also makes it more likely for Hunters and such to try and hunt down Mages, as others have mentioned.

[Dave Brookshaw]

Unfortunately, mundane means non-supernatural, not just non-Supernal.

[Michael]

I love that merit. We based a whole unfortunate "kinda illegal but everyone thinks everyone do it so no one try to do something about it" practice on it. In our games, Mage population is much smaller than associated Sleeper Sleepwalker "pyramid" under them, and a lot of estabilished Mages wraps themselves in Sleeper Cults [the fact that we houserule Sleeping Curse to modify memories of Magic not to "mundane stuff" but to "most believable NON SUPERNAL explanation for the victim, including lower case magic, supernatural, ESP, UFO, etc] where they first carefully shape their victims worldview [so the Curse will rationalize Magic for them in the "wanted" way] and then procedurally abuse Integrity of the few chosen ones in hope they will get the Fitful Slumber Merit.

I really like that idea. You can effectively overawe sleepers and bend them to your will but it requires reinforcing the Lie. That's a pretty great dilemma right there. Also it potentially gives the Seers a big advantage in that they generally aren't going to be too bothered by messing with the Lie too much (as long as the world isn't pulled into the Abyss, we're good).

One other thing to consider is that that seems a great way to create Banishers.

[Dataweaver]

Unfortunately, mundane means non-supernatural, not just non-Supernal.

Makes sense. Given how diverse non-Supernal supernatural phenomena are, not restricting it to exclude all sorts of supernatural would pretty much defang Quiescence.

[Solar]

And also especially as the Lie seems to be an anti-awakening force as much as it as an anti-awakened force, and awakenings seem to at times be triggered by sleepers attempting to understand the supernatural. Making their supernal magic experiences entirely mundane suppresses their desire to learn about something beyond the normal world they think they live in.

[Michael]

Makes sense. Given how diverse non-Supernal supernatural phenomena are, not restricting it to exclude all sorts of supernatural would pretty much defang Quiescence.

I'm not sure they meant it this way, but at the time I assumed due to the examples that WHW meant 'supernatural' in the mundane sense. Like, whilst in the CoD setting real supernatural beings do exist, there's presumably still the same real world supernatural pop culture that people believe in the real world.

You're not mistaking Supernal magic for something that's real, you're mistaking it for something that's wrong.

I'm kinda thinking of the cabal in Banishers which believes magi are aliens. They're not mistaking magi for real aliens that they've seen. They're taking bits of UFO culture and projecting it onto the Awakened.

[Charlaquin]

I love that merit. We based a whole unfortunate "kinda illegal but everyone thinks everyone do it so no one try to do something about it" practice on it. In our games, Mage population is much smaller than associated Sleeper Sleepwalker "pyramid" under them, and a lot of estabilished Mages wraps themselves in Sleeper Cults [the fact that we houserule Sleeping Curse to modify memories of Magic not to "mundane stuff" but to "most believable NON SUPERNAL explanation for the victim, including lower case magic, supernatural, ESP, UFO, etc] where they first carefully shape their victims worldview [so the Curse will rationalize Magic for them in the "wanted" way] and then procedurally abuse Integrity of the few chosen ones in hope they will get the Fitful Slumber Merit.

I just want to say, pretty much everything I hear about your games makes them sound incredibly fun to play in.

[Jakondite]

In a crossover mage vs hunter game, I feel like the conspiracies might be influenced by mage orders similar to how it's alluded that vampires influence TFV against other vampires.

In my opinion, hunters are the perfect tool to teach a mage about wisdom and utilizing their magic dangerously. Because of that, I feel like the guardians of the veil (maybe?) might take a particular interest in utilizing a group of hunters - not to kill a mage or group of mages, but to educate them on how that lack of wisdom can create issues. So if you wanted to utilize hunters as an antagonist to mage, it may be a good trick to have them have a 'patron' to make them more effective. I don't know that I'd see them as a lethal threat, but part of mage is the hubris of them - just because your a god doesn't mean you'll survive a bullet to the brain, and that's why it makes an effective hubris/wisdom lesson.

If the other direction was taken - hunters versus mages - the same philosophy could apply if the mage is particularly powerful. If they aren't, then a group of hunters might be a threat to a mage though probably not a full cabal - so maybe have them against one mage or two mages, but not a whole group of them; My thoughts there are... well, an order or consilium isn't going to see hunters as a 'threat' so they won't send the entire cities' mage groups against them, and it may well be written off if that mage is killed as the mages own fault, because of how little a threat hunters are assumed to be.