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Classifying Twilight

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  • Classifying Twilight

    In GMC, we were introduced to the notion that there are different kinds of Twilight: that ghosts, spirits, and angels exist in separate Twilights and don’t interact with each other. The recent Mage 2e reveal mentioned that goetia in the material world exist in the same “stratum” of Twilight as vampires and mortals who mentally project. It also mentioned (in the comments section) that the reason why 2e’s astral entities are called “goetia” (and not “demons”) because mages are big on naming and classifying things, and they wouldn’t use the same name for two different things.

    So with that in mind, it stands to reason that mages would classify and name the different kinds of Twilight, too. So: what kinds of Twilight exist, and what would mages call them?

    An initial scheme:
    • Astral Twilight: goetia, astral projection.
    • Spiritual Twilight: spirits.
    • Chthonian Twilight: ghosts and chthonians.
    • Empyreal Twilight: the God-Machine’s angels.

    Supernal, Abyssal, and Infernal entities each present unique challenges in this respect:

    • are there five distinct “Supernal Twilights” (one for each kind of Mage Sight), or do Supernal beings exist in the same Twilights that other ephemera exist in? e.g., is Stygian Twilight the same as “Chthonian Twilight”, with shades and ghosts being able to see and interact with each other, or are they different things?
    • do Abyssal and Infernal entities have their own kinds of Twilight, or do they manifest within other Twilights? If the latter, how do you determine which Twilight a given Abyssal or Infernal entity should manifest in?



  • #2
    Oy, this is starting to get as complex and layered as the CWOD's Umbra.


    - If you must be ridiculous, I must ridicule you.
    - Those that can give up essential liberties in exchange for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Benjamin Franklin

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    • #3
      Well, yeah; that’s what happens when you put different kinds of ephemera in separate “layers” of intangibility. It’s not the decision I would have made, for that very reason; but that’s where we are now. So what can we do with it?
      Last edited by Dataweaver; 10-23-2014, 11:58 PM.


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      • #4
        It helps to look at them less as "layers", and more as "frequencies."

        Basically, ephemeral beings are FM radio broadcasts; you have to "dial in" to the right frequency band before you can interact with them. Astral projection lands you on the same band as Goetic entities; other entities (like the Strix) might cover a band that overlaps that of Ghosts and Spirits.


        I have decided, after some thought, that I don't really feel happy on these forums. I might decide to come back to post. Who knows - but right now, I'm gone.

        So good bye, good luck, and have a nice day.

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        • #5
          Layers, frequencies, flavors, types; I agree that mages would have a name for this division of ephemera into different classes, and “frequencies” is as good as any. But I’m more curious as to what they’d call the individual frequencies, and in fact what they consider the individual ones to be.

          The Strix aren’t ephemeral entities, and don’t exist in Twilight at all.


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          • #6
            Strix have a Twilight Form; when they enter Twilight, they can interact with both Ghosts and Spirits. They get the ability at Shadow Potency 8, which rarely (if ever) comes up, so...


            I have decided, after some thought, that I don't really feel happy on these forums. I might decide to come back to post. Who knows - but right now, I'm gone.

            So good bye, good luck, and have a nice day.

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            • #7
              Ah; that explains why I missed it.


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              • #8
                Well, obviously, the mental realm is the Near Astral Plane...
                Lower Twilight contains dead things like ghosts.
                Near --erm--Twilight obviously contains spirits...


                More seriously:
                Mental projections could be in the realm/state of "Ennoia". Modern magi would probably tend that "the psychic plane" or something akin. Terms involving the Mind's Eye or sending one's mind after things could serve well, too. Expositional; Outer Minded; External Mind; Exsukia; Transsukia
                To name the Deathly area, we could loook at the deathly approaches in the stories. The approach to Hades, but before you got to Charon and Stix, say. Relate to the mind or soul, but in some consequential or diminished form? Anima Echos; psycho; (barmthamon? barudai/mwn? Anyhow, oppressed by fate) Could go with mind, soul, or life removed. "Pale Realm" works for me, too.
                Spirit is comparatively easy: it's just "Pnuema" "Numenal" whatever.


                (I take it the Strix got a serious rewrite, then, in the recent releases? 'Cause the fact that they tended to hide in Twilight much of the time was significant plot point in Fall of the Camarilla.)

                When I saw the title of the thread I thought "Now you're no longer cleared for this information, Dataweaver. I'm sorry."


                Grump, grouse, and/or gripe.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by thenate View Post
                  'Cause the fact that they tended to hide in Twilight much of the time was significant plot point in Fall of the Camarilla.)
                  It wasn't, actually, unless my reader's search function is on the fritz or you're alluding to a passage that does not contain the word "Twilight" - Wicked Dead's coverage of the Strix, meanwhile, concerns the Strix in modern nights and specifically says they don't occupy the state of Twilight.

                  Blood and Smoke's mechanics flattens their Attribute spread into PFR and gives them all breath-drinking as their default means of gaining Vitae, but the only ones that are in Twilight are either centuries old or have eaten a great deal of their fellows and opted to semipermanently shift diets to cannibalizing the two main flavors of ephemera.


                  Resident Lore-Hound
                  Currently Consuming: Demon: the Descent 1e

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                  • #10
                    I think they would classify the different "frequencies" based off which Arcana you'd need to contact/interact with them.

                    Ghosts would belong to the Frequency of Death
                    Spirits would belong to the Frequency of Spirit (duh?)
                    Angels would belong to the Frequency of ?Prime? (I think? Makes some sense.)
                    Goetia and Astral Projections would belong to the Frequency of Mind.

                    Supernal Entities would lie in the appropriate Frequency; I'm not sure where Abyssal Entities would lie, but Infernal Entities would probably lie in either Mind or Spirit - I'd even peg them as "co-vibrating" on Mind and Spirit, much like how Strix in Twilight Form would resonate with Death/Spirit.

                    More "poetic" Mages might refer to the different Frequencies as belonging to a given Watchtower or Path (in a metaphorical sense).

                    I would say that the "main" Frequencies would correspond to the Subtle Arcana. Theoretically, you could also have Frequencies corresponding to the Gross Arcana, but I strongly doubt you'd see much representation there; after all, those are the Arcana of physical things.


                    Of course, "Frequency" is probably not a term Mages would use; I just think this would be a probable organizational scheme.

                    There probably isn't one specific set of terms used; I mean, to give one example (the Mage in question was a musician before their Awakening):

                    The Refrain Acanthus
                    The Refrain Mastigos
                    The Refrain Moros
                    The Refrain Obrimos
                    The Refrain Thyrsus

                    Though this does bring up the question - thanks to the different frequencies of Twilight, would they even identify it as one place? I mean, it's simple to prove the connection if you have access to two distinct types of Mage Sight AND an ephemeral being that spans the two frequencies/layers... but those are a lot of ifs.


                    I have decided, after some thought, that I don't really feel happy on these forums. I might decide to come back to post. Who knows - but right now, I'm gone.

                    So good bye, good luck, and have a nice day.

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                    • #11
                      I've run into this problem at least once in a game when my ST failed miserably to grasp the concept, undermining the group's confidence in his ability to run the game. At the very least, it would be helpful to break the confusion of all these Twilight spirits by sidebarring the distinctions between the "frequencies" rather than hinting at it and/or burying it in a block of text. My only hesitation about adding more technical terms to describe all of this centers around the overall "friendliness" of the game to new/casual players who might be turned off at the prospect of cracking open the book every five minutes to look up a simple term.

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                      • #12
                        This is too complicated...
                        I really disliked that in GMC they put all different ephemeral beings in different "frequencies".
                        Anyway now, besides the Strix with Blood Potency 8 which can be in Twilight Form and interact with both spirits and ghosts, we also have an other oddity: The Khaibit bloodline using Obtenebration can perceive ALL entities in Twilight, and when turn into a Shadow he can interact and fight them, including Strix in their normal form(which are not in Twilight)

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                        • #13
                          About Abyssal entities: it seens according to the latest blog post of Dave regarding 2ed, when in the Fallen World they usually manifest as corrupted version of spirits but rarelly they can manifest as ghosts also, they don' have their own frequency

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                          • #14
                            I would suggest giving Inferno its own Twilight frequency, because most intermediate demons are ex-goetics, -ghosts, or -spirits. They could stay on their frequency of origin, but that undercuts the fact that they've become something else - and most Dominions are something else to begin with.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Felipe View Post
                              This is too complicated...
                              I really disliked that in GMC they put all different ephemeral beings in different "frequencies".
                              Anyway now, besides the Strix with Blood Potency 8 which can be in Twilight Form and interact with both spirits and ghosts, we also have an other oddity: The Khaibit bloodline using Obtenebration can perceive ALL entities in Twilight, and when turn into a Shadow he can interact and fight them, including Strix in their normal form(which are not in Twilight)
                              I really don't see why it's complicated.

                              Then again, I look at it with Set Theory in mind:

                              You have G, S, and A, with Ghosts lying in G∩Sc∩Ac, Spirits lying in Gc∩S∩Ac, Angels lying in Gc∩Sc∩A, Twilight Form Strix lying in (G∪S)∩Ac, and Obtenebration letting you see G∪S∪A.

                              Simple!


                              I have decided, after some thought, that I don't really feel happy on these forums. I might decide to come back to post. Who knows - but right now, I'm gone.

                              So good bye, good luck, and have a nice day.

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