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The hedge true fae and mage

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  • The hedge true fae and mage

    Where is the hedge in mage cosmology? Is it part of the astral? Is it a part of the Arcadian supernal realm? Are true fae supernal creatures?

    How does a mage get into a trod? Can he get goblin fruit?

  • #2
    In order: Fuck if anyone knows, maybe, probably not, maybe, same as anyone else plus the option of using Fate to fake the key, yes (for all the good that it will do their non-fae constitution).


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    • #3
      In that case how have some of you handles it in your games? Any ideas or thoughts you're particularly fond of?

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      • #4
        Imperial Mysteries hints quite heavily at the True Fae being part of supernal Arcadia. But here's the twist: being expressions of Fate and Time, they may exist in any million different realities and timelines at the same time.

        As for the hedge, I'd call it an emanation realm OR a realm with an Iris to Arcadia.

        Third option would be: lower depths (cuz that's where mages stuff everything they can't quite classify)


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        • #5
          In the last game of Mage I STed, Changeling!Arcadia was an emanation chained to Mage!Arcadia. In my next game it'll be a realm in the Lower Depths.

          In short: No definite answer given by the developers, and I seriously doubt we'll get one.

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          • #6
            I've always seen Changeling Arcadia as having no link at all to Supernal Arcadia. Sure, it's a manifestation of the Fate Arcanum, but that doesn't make it Supernal anymore than a rock is Supernal because there's a Matter Arcanum.

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            • #7
              The others have mostly covered what I was going to say, but here's what I've found in my readings:


              Imperial Mysteries alludes to Changeling's True Fae with the Old Gods of Thistle: they were the gods of supernal Arcadia - living Stories which came to the material world to kidnap audiences and actors for the stories they tell with each other. They were kicked out by the Exarchs who tamed Arcadia - but they keep coming, from alternate timelines or past/future Arcadias, and have no knowledge of the Exarchs, Abyss, or Watchtower.
              This is the closest Mage to incorporating Changeling cosmology, and its pretty thin - in the sense usual sense that they could or could not be related, and additionally because Imperial Mysteries is more optional than most books, only intended for archmage stories (it breaks a lot of setting assumptions, even in mage, in order to provide a new story type).

              On a similar-ish note, Changeling's Dancers in the Dusk introduces a type of hobgoblin, 'the Unmade', which are the consequences of a mage making it into an (fae) Arcadian realm: unable to form pledges with the realm, they're forced to cannibalize their own bodies and souls, until the Dusk shows them the way out, and then they wander the hedge, obsessed with getting back in.
              It's far from answering any cosmological questions, and they're designed to be an antagonist for changelings, so that's not necessarily something mage games should use. But, again, it's as close as Changeling comes to including mages and (fae) Arcadia interacting [and this kind of implies that the Arcadias are different, since you won't expect that interaction between a Mage and the Supernal].

              Mage and Changeling have a somewhat contentious interaction. Since Changeling's core, they've tried to draw a firm line to keep mage's cosmology assumptions from creeping into their setting (which was likely because of using the term 'Arcadia' in both); similarly, Mage kept a line between Changeling material and the Astral plane. So the settings don't fit nicely together; in part because each gameline is supposed to have its own independently-standing setting, in part because the writers intentionally throw in quirks to foil attempts to unify the cosmology, and in part because Changeling and Mage have excluded each other.

              The one other bit I'll mention, though, is the current trend in how Mage is describing the Supernal Realms. Dave B has done some great explanations around the forums, and in this developer's blog post about Mage Sight. The gist is that the supernal isn't a place; you don't physically go to Another Realm, the way you would the Hedge or Shadow. The supernal is a more of the code of underlying symbols that compose the world. Since cahgneling's Arcadia is an actual place people physically travel to, it wouldn't work in this conception of the supernal.


              But, apart from your questions about Hedge mechanics (which have been addressed, I think, but I'm not sure where; Dancers in the Dusk?), there are no official answers about the cosmology - and probably never will be. Which means the most correct answer is "whatever makes sense for you game." It's left up to the Storytellers to decide how things fit together. WoD is a toolbox system, so there is no wrong way to put it together; if it's interesting to you and tells a good story, it's always right.


              Hope that helps you think about it,
              ~Seraph Kitty


              Second Chance for
              [ATTACH=CONFIG]temp_709_1572548741915_354[/ATTACH]
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              • #8
                Thank you all. I appreciate it and it does give me food for thought.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Yuukale View Post
                  Imperial Mysteries hints quite heavily at the True Fae being part of supernal Arcadia. But here's the twist: being expressions of Fate and Time, they may exist in any million different realities and timelines at the same time.

                  (...)

                  Third option would be: lower depths (cuz that's where mages stuff everything they can't quite classify)
                  In my private cosmology I have a fourth answer - True Fae are Old Gods of Thistle, but were banished by Exarchs. They found Changling's Arcadia in mages "Lower Depths part" of universe, and call it home. Still, some most old want to return to Supernal Arcadia and overtake it from Iron Seals.

                  In reality, they need to become symbols once more to do it, and overthrow ruling symbols of oppression from Exarchs. Because in Mage 2ed, as Seraph Kitty pointed out, Supernal Realms are "secret code/symbols overlay of universe" more, than literal, physical realm. And for True Fae to fight as symbols with symbols of tyranny and oppression... well, they need to capture a lot of people, and even more of them frighten, thinking and talking about them - living even with their horror of being taken "by Them" - so their narrative tale-existence would be more powerful than idea of Prophet or Nemezis, to over rule them.

                  Hopes it helps with "dual Arcadia problem".
                  Last edited by wyrdhamster; 11-06-2014, 02:45 AM.


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                  • #10
                    In 1E, Arcadia and Arcadia were heavily implied to be the same place, with enough wiggle room for you to say that they weren't.
                    In 2E, Arcadia and Arcadia are pretty clearly not the same place, with enough wiggle room for you to say that they are.

                    You can count the Changeling crossover hints in Awakening - both editions - on the fingers of one hand. The "controversy" is almost all from the Changeling line's side, and it's too early to say if it'll continue. Who knows? Changeling 2E might not mention mages ever.


                    Dave Brookshaw

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                    • #11
                      I see them as being the same place. When the ladder broke and reality exploded, Arcadia (and several other supernal realms) started hemorrhaging all over reality and the hedge is its weird, cosmic scab that tears up everything in its path, including the Abyss.

                      2E is probably going to shake this up a bit, considering the Supernal is much less physical now.

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                      • #12
                        Here's how I figure it all shakes out...

                        Arcadia : Arcadia
                        as
                        Primal Wild : Shadow

                        Yes? Makes sense?

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Knowbody View Post
                          Here's how I figure it all shakes out...

                          Arcadia : Arcadia
                          as
                          Primal Wild : Shadow

                          Yes? Makes sense?
                          So hedge=gauntlet?

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                          • #14
                            I always favoured the explanation of the True Fae given in Imperial Mysteries: "They are of Arcadia, the realm of Time, and mere inconveniences like their home no longer existing and the creation of the Abyss won’t stop them from exercising their right to take playthings from the world."

                            In my own game Acanthus Mages can interact with Changeling magic in interesting ways e.g. they can use Fate to alter pledges, or even erase them if they are powerful enough.

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                            • #15
                              Having two realm of symbolism always seemed very messy, and not in a good way.


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