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Clothed in Immortality

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  • Clothed in Immortality

    In the thread about mages living longer I brought up an idea about using Prime as a vector for bodily transformation. The responses were somewhat mixed, and it was not the point of the thread, so I decided to make a new thread to solicit advice and discussion. Here were some of my ideas in brief:

    Would it be possible for a mage to transfer their soul into a complex phantasm or tulpa such that they now inhabited a body sculpted from mana?

    If so, what would the ramifications be? Would the body require food, air, etc. or continue to age? Would it be subject to disbelief? Could the mage alter it with Prime mage to become a bird or simply grow wings onto their humanoid form?

    Should that not prove possible in a single action, what about a series of replacements? Perhaps replacing limbs or organs piecemeal would result in a similar effect.

    Finally, should normal magic not be an effective vehicle for this, would a legacy be more reasonable? What degree of transition would each attainment be?


    Part of the inspiration for this line of thinking was the Fiery Transformation spell which requires Forces 4 and Life 4.

  • #2
    Hmm...I'd imagine that unless you were an archmage and you just stayed in your Chantry, or assuming you weren't an archmage, that you stayed away from anywhere Sleepers might see you, the body would indeed be subject to Disbelief.

    Which of course means that this would be a super sweet idea for a legacy: a group of transhumanists who seek to transfer themselves into phantasmal bodies in order to better understand the Supernal: "to know magic we must become magic".

    Probably Mysterium because of the experiential component, but also probably super Left-Handed, because shunting your soul into a custom-built magical construct seems to be bordering on the territory of some other socially unacceptable legacies (Chrysalides, the Austere), not to mention how alien senior members would become to non-members. If there's a potential for it to make the mage immortal, then that just compounds the left-handedness, because whether or not that's their actual motivation, members will be branded as liches.

    I'd imagine they'd probably start from a base of being specialists in producing and manipulating phantasms, to being able to control phantasms from afar, and graduate up to permanently extending their consciousness into a network of phantasmal constructs as their 3rd Attainment, which would I guess require both Prime and Mind.
    Last edited by GhostTurtle; 01-20-2014, 05:37 PM.

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    • #3
      Actually becoming a living phantasm is a fourth attainment level, if not Imperial, I'd rule. (That's a significant part of what the Celestial Ladder did and fits the notion of ascending through attainment really well.) If you want it lower down, I'm thinking three stages: Death to remove the soul, and probably Death, Prime, and Spirit to transform the phantasm into a strange sort of soul jar, and Mind, Prime, Space, Spirit to make the thing "your body." (Maybe Fate)


      I'm kinda seeing this as a Prime primary, Space secondary sort of legacy, myself. (Mind as optional.) Something along these lines, maybe:


      1st: Soul Weaver
      Prime Space
      The mage learns how to weave a piece of their identity into an illusion. This requires that they (fluff text and appropriate restrictions here, like mapping to personal resonance or somesuch) The result is a Phantasm to which the creator has an automatic Sensory connection to.
      This attainment allows them to see phantasms for what they are. (Detect Phantasm)

      2nd: The Lidless Eye
      Prime Space
      The mage learns to weave more detail into these soul manifestations. (...flavor, details, and limits)
      The mage can also add more detail to their illusions (give 'em access to the appropriate Prime effects. Can't recall if Phantasmal Weapon is 3 or 4.)
      Also, the mage can shift senses to body or any linked phatasm as a mental action. It requires an Instant mental action to gain the same information that would normally be reflexive for a body in a location if the senses are located elsewhere.

      Optional Mind 3: The mage may monitor a number of Phantasms with full reflexive sensory reactions equal to Mind. No action is required to shift focus any longer. The character gains no other actions, though this does permit them to do nothing or follow standard programming if such is encoded, rather than all react the same way. As long as a body or phantasm hasn't acted physically in a round, making it do so only requires a mental action.

      3rd: Other Me
      Prime Space
      Mage phantasms that are tied to the self and hold significant substance. Phantasms that perfectly mimic the appearance of the caster can be created without flaw as an Instant action, no roll required. Potency of these is Prime. Consciousness is simultaneously split among the connected illusions. (See Manifold Present or whatever the Space 4 one is)

      Optional Mind 4: Phantasms created with the attainments are armed with a rudimentary mind. The caster's Mind rating is split between the Mental Attributes. Mind is also separately distributed among the Social Attributes. None of these can exceed the creator's ratings. The character's skills are used as normal. These will act according to the volition of the character who created them using these limited attributes. These actions do not use their creator's actions.
      If the creator uses a mental action to act through a given phantasm, the phatasm's mental and physical attributes add to his own for the action.

      The last optional is way too clunky, and it needs tweaking to make it actually work, but it's something I could see.

      Eh, it's an idea to fiddle with.


      Grump, grouse, and/or gripe.

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      • #4
        It’s not Prime; but the Scions of God are rumored to have something like this.


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        • #5
          Originally posted by Exthalion View Post
          Would it be possible for a mage to transfer their soul into a complex phantasm or tulpa such that they now inhabited a body sculpted from mana?
          Yes. It would require significant ability on the part of the Mage, likely through Death 5/Mind 5/Prime 5 (creating the Tulpa and transplanting your soul). This wouldn't be permanent, for that you would need to be an Archmaster. In addition you would be subject to the same limitations as the Tulpa i.e. being stuck in a relatively small space. At the end of the spell's duration, or the Tulpa's destruction through other means, your soul would return to its original body, if alive.
          Alternatively, Life 4/Prime 4 would directly change your body into a phantasm, circumventing the need for a soul transplant. It would basically function like an odd, less effective and less efficient version of Fantasia, requiring further Prime spells for further modification. This would also be impossible to maintain permanently without Archmastery.

          Originally posted by Exthalion View Post
          If so, what would the ramifications be? Would the body require food, air, etc. or continue to age? Would it be subject to disbelief? Could the mage alter it with Prime mage to become a bird or simply grow wings onto their humanoid form?
          There would be no need for sustenance of any kind or be subject to aging or disease. It would be subject to disbelief, just like any other Phantasm, when any form of interaction would betray its nature (I'm not sure but I think its substance will never emulate the same feeling as the copied object when touched. Phantasmal water looks like water and behaves like water but it still feels off. I imagine it to be much like tapioca-pudding. To reiterate, I'm not sure!). I think the mage could further alter his new phantasmal body through other Phantasm spells. I do think it would count towards spell tolerance permanently and be vulnerable to dispellation.

          Originally posted by Exthalion View Post
          Should that not prove possible in a single action, what about a series of replacements? Perhaps replacing limbs or organs piecemeal would result in a similar effect.
          I believe it is possible to do so all at once. I think replacing body parts might be possible but highly inefficient, requiring Life 4 and Prime 4 anyway and still not be able to be made permanent. An actual purely phantasmal, functioning arm could be made permanent but it wouldn't actually be part of your pattern, similar to a prosthetic. I'm not so sure if this would work with vital organs...

          Originally posted by Exthalion View Post
          Finally, should normal magic not be an effective vehicle for this, would a legacy be more reasonable? What degree of transition would each attainment be?
          I really feel like a legacy is a good and cool way to go. I love thenate's ideas and comments in regards to this idea.

          If all else fails you can alway go 'the Unbidden route' if you want an interesting NPC or have an accommodating ST, where some experiment gone awry, abyssal influence or odd confluence of events causes the character to become a phantasm or be made out of tass, with all the good AND bad that entails. Might make for a cool Thaumivore antagonist or something...

          Just some thoughts. I may very well be wrong, but I feel it could be done. If anything, I'd go with thenate's idea.

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          • #6
            Huh. Anada thought: Turn a chunk of material Tass into a (sorta) Soul Jar. Use that mana to create a phantasmal vessel for a soul.


            Grump, grouse, and/or gripe.

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