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  • A WoD book bothering you by making you think deeper about something in the real world is probably a feature.

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    • To be clear, that wasn't me saying that I'm bothered by the book, just... those poor Iranian gay people.


      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
      Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.

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      • Personally, were this issue to come up for me, i'd rule that you have to actually change your biological sex to make your new gender's name your real name for purposes of sympathetic magic. Yes I'm fully aware that it's not fair. but in my mind it's the act of permanently changing your body that is the act of will required to actually change your real name. Under this system, a pre-op woudl most liekly indeed refer to it as a "sympathetic name"

        For the non trans people, i'd simply say that changing your legal name through standard legal methods DOES change your real name. When you get married and take on your spouses name, that's a real name change for purposes of sympathetic magic. You don't need the maiden name. If you go through the effort to be recognized by your government as your new name, that's a change of real name. But entering the witness protection program wouldn't change your real name at all. Your new name in that case is a false name, created to hide yourself. there are benefits and drawbacks.

        If the fallen world records it as your primary identity (through government records, your ID, etc.) it is your real name for purposes of sympathetic magic. For it to work as a trans mage, you also have to get the fallen world to recognize your new gender. And that generally takes surgery.

        Yes, this means hacking government records is a pretty good way to get real names of mages. It still requires a heavily penalized skill roll.

        I'd rule this way because it a) makes sense to me and b) makes it impossible to hide the "real name" completely, because it's a construct of the fallen world. The True Name ritual is the only fix for it, which blocks the name based sympathetic connection completely.

        If the real name for sympathetic magic is the birth name only, legal name changes will stymie attempts to get it too well.
        Last edited by zaphod77; 08-15-2015, 06:51 PM.

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        • What? Why on earth would a cis person be able to change their sympathetic name though legal processes and a trans person not be able to? That doesn't make any sense. Either everyone should be able to change their sympathetic name by changing their legal name or no one should be able to. Pick one and apply your rules consistently.


          Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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          • I'm aware it's totally unfair, but that the unfairness is a part of the fallen world.

            The consistent standard is "will it change everything related on the true mundane ID"? If someone can get his real ID to read the desired gender, the process of changing the "real name" to the other gender works. if not, it doesn't.

            AS i said, the entire "birth name is the real name" thing just doesn't sit well with me. What about people who didn't have a birth name? It can happen. The only thing that is actually consistent is this...

            The name that people in general would recognize as your real name if they knew the truth is your real name. I'm well aware that standard is a bit unfair to certain people. but it's the only one i can think of that gives everyone a real name.

            To change your real name it must be intended as a change of your real name, and also be recognized by the fallen world as a change of identity. Sadly, trans people do still have trouble with the latter. Letting them change it with the help of surgery is a compromise. I know a lot of bigots will refuse to recognize even that. But it's not fair to lock them out of it forever.

            And last name changes that hide the birth name under that system are not equally available to both sexes, so that's inconsistent.
            Last edited by zaphod77; 08-15-2015, 07:41 PM.

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            • Originally posted by zaphod77 View Post
              AS i said, the entire "birth name is the real name" thing just doesn't sit well with me. What about people who didn't have a birth name? It can happen. The only thing that is actually consistent is this...
              Then their real name is going to be the first name they were consistently called by for a relevant period of time. It doesn't have to be the name they were given literally at birth, it is just the first name they had. If someone somehow went 20 years without being given a name (not even naming themselves) and then people suddenly started calling them Jack for a month or two their real name would become Jack.

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              • By that logic, wouldn't it be possible to alter your True Name by useing Mind magic to alter everyones memory of your own name, including your own?

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                • If changing of real name depend on changing official ID, you simply doesn't need a ridiculous rule about trans people having to underwent surgery. All the unfairness of the setting will be handled by the legal obstacles to do this to begin with. It is simply stupid to think that you need a more drastic step just to transit from male-name to female-name.

                  To begin with, because what's a male name and a female name changes from place to place. It is a cultural thing. And second because the laws about naming people vary from place to place. Where I live, you can give whatever name you want to a children, and an adult can change her name to whatever, also, but only once. If Jack wants to become Jane, he can do so without any legal concern.

                  And, well. The problem with equaling Real Name with Official ID is that to change ID isn't all that hard, even for a mortal. Fake IDs, legal double-standards or non-standards (what about an ID from a country that doesn't exist anymore? I know one personally), fake names that are far recognized... you have a lot of grey areas where you'll have problems with this interpretation anyway. More than people that went without a name for more than five years.


                  #NothingAboutUsWithoutUs
                  #AutismPride
                  She/her pronouns

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                  • Originally posted by zaphod77 View Post
                    I'm aware it's totally unfair, but that the unfairness is a part of the fallen world.
                    It isn't an issue of unfairness, it's an issue of not making sense. If a cis woman changes her legal name from Susan to Taylor that gets to count as her sympathetic name, but if a trans man changes his legal name from Susan to Taylor it doesn't? Why?

                    Originally posted by zaphod77 View Post
                    The consistent standard is "will it change everything related on the true mundane ID"? If someone can get his real ID to read the desired gender, the process of changing the "real name" to the other gender works. if not, it doesn't.
                    It's sympathetic name, not sympathetic sex. You can get your name legally changed to whatever you damn well please. If Prince could change his legal name to a symbol, a trans woman can sure as hell get her legal name changed to Stephanie, whether the law recognizes her as a woman or not.

                    Originally posted by zaphod77 View Post
                    AS i said, the entire "birth name is the real name" thing just doesn't sit well with me. What about people who didn't have a birth name? It can happen. The only thing that is actually consistent is this...
                    Sure, fine, just make sure your house rule is consistent. If changing your legal name is all it takes, changing your legal name should be all it takes for anyone.

                    Originally posted by zaphod77 View Post
                    The name that people in general would recognize as your real name if they knew the truth is your real name. I'm well aware that standard is a bit unfair to certain people. but it's the only one i can think of that gives everyone a real name.
                    What exactly do you mean by "if they knew the truth"?

                    Originally posted by zaphod77 View Post
                    To change your real name it must be intended as a change of your real name, and also be recognized by the fallen world as a change of identity. Sadly, trans people do still have trouble with the latter. Letting them change it with the help of surgery is a compromise. I know a lot of bigots will refuse to recognize even that. But it's not fair to lock them out of it forever.
                    Changing a legal name is actually very easy, no matter your gender. Passing as a different sex can be difficult for some people, but it doesn't always require surgery, and more importantly it has nothing at all to do with your name.

                    Originally posted by zaphod77 View Post
                    And last name changes that hide the birth name under that system are not equally available to both sexes, so that's inconsistent.
                    Yes they are. Anyone can get their last name legally changed.
                    Last edited by Charlaquin; 08-16-2015, 01:36 AM.


                    Going by Willow now, or Wil for short. She/Her/Hers.

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                    • Originally posted by GibberingEloquence View Post
                      You know what? To the Lower Depths with silk gloves. I will be fully honest in this post. If you feel that my grievances do not apply to you, then please don't reply saying you were offended and that I should check my privilege. Nobody is forcing you to read this.

                      Please stop turning the subtext of entertainment into major political issues.
                      There is a lot in this thread about trying to control other posters' opinion, how to conduct oneself about trans relations, and tone policing.

                      Please leave the thread and take an infraction as a warning.
                      Last edited by CTPhipps; 12-11-2021, 09:59 AM.


                      Author of Cthulhu Armageddon, I was a Teenage Weredeer, Straight Outta Fangton, Lucifer's Star, and the Supervillainy Saga.

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                      • That message was literally six years ago. Would the infraction be timed from the time of the original post, I wonder...

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