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[Mystery] Supernal Alchemy & Philosopher's Stone

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  • wyrdhamster
    started a topic [Mystery] Supernal Alchemy & Philosopher's Stone

    [Mystery] Supernal Alchemy & Philosopher's Stone

    For a game where 1/5th of all characters are calling themselves Alchemists ( I mean Moros Path in 2ED ) and are capable of changing and shaping both Elements ( by Matter ) and Prime Materia ( by Prime ), Mage has very little info about Philosopher's Stone – legendary “substance”(???) that is said to change any matter in to another, cure any sickness and grant immortality. It’s such a loss the books does not dwell in to this topic, especially as Alchemists quest for finding Lapis Philosophorum. ( other name for Stone ) is very large theme in real world occultism. Also, obvious great crossovers could be made with Promethean based on this subject. So let’s make it, here in this topic!

    From the times of early Mage 1ED I thought of Philosopher's Stone as great material for some stories and rumors to use in setting. Now, with 2ED focus on seeking Mysteries, I think that Lapis Philosophorum is one of the best to be found. More, I think it can be just the most important of them – right beside the Atlantis and Ascension!
    With Mage focus on hermetic form of magic, Philosopher's Stone should be one of greatest treasures to be found and it’s quest idea works perfectly with how Mysteries are reflected and researched by the Awakened.

    So let me tell your stories ( or mechanics ) about Lapis Philosophorum and it’s Grand Mystery reflected on the lives of Awakened. ( And if you found some official material, point it also to us. )

    I start then…

    “You heard those stories, yes? About substance that can change any matter? About giving eternal life? I know that for many Awakened that can rule over simple Elements or extend their lifespan, quest for Philosopher's Stone seems as needless trouble with it’s all Magnum Opus, but hear me out – it is true, and it is glorious!

    Sleepers only were limited in their scope when describing it. They thought that works of normal Matter or Life Arcanum as it’s only miracles. But I assure you – Lapis Philosophorum is much more. The legends of the Awakened state it can make ANY MIRACLE, any Magic possible – even legendary True Resurrection! You know, the idea you do not make someone undead shade, reanimate his body or brought back only his timeline and memory. No, with Philosopher's Stone you can bring back anyone to being – no IFs, no HOWs – just a Stone and your will.

    And it’s all possible before Archmastery! Just you need to be able to create or rather – recreate - ANYTHING. So Lapis Philosophorum can be made from Soul Stone of Master in all 10 Arcana. Simple, yes? Just find a person that dwell in all Arcana and get to the Mastery in each one of them…”
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 12-25-2015, 11:57 AM.

  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Done write up of Philospher's Stone as 2E Mystery in my sheet format. Any thoughts are more than welcome. Remember - it's aim is to work as main Mystery for the chronicle and players to understand origins of Stone is ST idea. In my way, it works as sacrificing other beings.

    Also, I think about limiting Stones powers only to transformation - you can replicate any spell at least if it change directly the target. Stones would not open portals or could interact with Realms Invisible, on normal takes. What do you think about it?

    And last but not least - I mentioned two Grimoires where info about Stones could be. If you got idea for third one - I'm listening.

    Now, to main dish...

    Mystery: Philosopher's Stone

    Other Names: Lapis Philosophorum, Magnum Opus, Imperium Mysteriorum, Golden Dawn
    Concept: Alchemical “stones” ( crystals ) that give users power to control whole Arcana
    Scale: Singular stone can replicate any spell from any Arcanum up to 5 dots, in sensory range, making it Lasting. Legendary recipe on “pure” stone should be able to make come true Archmasters powers.
    Location: Anywhere finded, most of time in some alchemists possession. Stones are often seen in areas where Nicholas Flamel was. There are rumors that Prometheans also create Stones with their bodies.
    Important NPCs: Nicholas Flamel, archmaster. Any dedicated Alchemist ( Moros ). Prometheans.
    Described in: Magnum Opus (Flamel’s Grimoire), The Book of Life (Nicholas Kollar Grimoire), Cintamani (Unknown's Grimoire)
    Locked [ ] With Mysteries: Uncrowned Kings Legacy (Analyzing Legacy member lowers Opacity )
    Peripheral Mage Sight






    Clash of Wills: No
    Active Mage Sight






    Main Arcanum: All of them. J When needed one – Matter.
    Supernal Magic: Yes
    Nimbus: Depends on creator. Most often – Nicholas Flamel’s one.
    Focused Mage Sight






    Opacity: 8

    Surface Information

    Rest of Arcana: All of them
    Resonance: None?
    Age: Depends on Stone creation
    Power Level: Arcanum Rating: 5 Practice: All

    Deep Information

    Gnosis Equivalent: 8
    Realms Invisible: None
    Specific Nature: Stones are remaking reality. They are treated as pieces of Supernal itself.
    Effects on the World: Various changes of reality
    Scale and Strength: Singular stone can replicate any spell from any Arcanum up to 5 dots, with all Reach – beside Spirit Arcanum. Legendary recipe on “pure” stone should be able to make come true Archmasters powers.
    Similar to Mysteries: Uncrowned Kings Legacy, Prometheans, Supernal Alchemy.
    Arcanum Relation: Complex, ever changing Tapestry of Arcana that entwine in stone.
    Actions Involving: None, beside spellcasting.
    Special: Any possible origins of Stone are each Deep Information that comes AFTER lowering Opacity to 0 and with EACH Revelation comes only one source.
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 05-15-2016, 12:55 PM.

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  • Prometheus
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    Was asked in other topic...



    "Mastery of All Arcana" is one RUMORED possible way to attain Philosopher's Stone. In my game, Nicholas Flamel can create you one for the life of other human being - he created his own when he killed his wife, in XIV century Paris. But as it is still great sacrifice, for all those centuries, he still look for the way to attain Stone without killing anybody.

    As to how "Mystery of All Arcana" rumor is popular in Awakened circles - I say very. It does sound as thing that could be achieved in once life of very dedicated mage, but also we know this mechanics of "you can almost be there, but not quite". I'm really interested as how 2ED will treat those limits.

    And to the greater rumor idea - I think there were tries to bypass it somehow. Like trying to use Soul Stones of Masters in all 10 Arcana. Still not thought about what could be results of those...
    I think you should be theoretically able to achieve 10th degree Mastery in 2e, if only because of the simplified rules and the apparent lack of an Arcana progression table spanning half the page, that can be now used for other things. The simplified rules and no table have been confirmed by Dave.

    Besides, the light of Gnosis limiting, how complex and detailed things you can observe in the tapestry of an Arcanum, sure, that made sense. Knowledge gained in one Arcanum suddenly preventing you from getting knowledge in another, on the other hand, that was pretty illogical.

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Was asked in other topic...

    Originally posted by Pale_Crusader View Post
    About the philosopher stone mystery, even at max gnosis isn't it only possible to be two two arcanum dots shy of mastery of all arcanum? (which leads to the question of how well known that fact is, and how insanely frustrating it would be for those seeking this stone)
    "Mastery of All Arcana" is one RUMORED possible way to attain Philosopher's Stone. In my game, Nicholas Flamel can create you one for the life of other human being - he created his own when he killed his wife, in XIV century Paris. But as it is still great sacrifice, for all those centuries, he still look for the way to attain Stone without killing anybody.

    As to how "Mystery of All Arcana" rumor is popular in Awakened circles - I say very. It does sound as thing that could be achieved in once life of very dedicated mage, but also we know this mechanics of "you can almost be there, but not quite". I'm really interested as how 2ED will treat those limits.

    And to the greater rumor idea - I think there were tries to bypass it somehow. Like trying to use Soul Stones of Masters in all 10 Arcana. Still not thought about what could be results of those...
    Last edited by wyrdhamster; 02-09-2016, 11:31 PM.

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  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    If someone is interested in my Magnum Opus chronicle I show how I used mechanically Philosopher's Stone.

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  • Ephsy
    replied
    Originally posted by Tambov View Post
    Is that Emma Watson?
    Rose Leslie.

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  • Tambov
    replied
    Is that Emma Watson?

    Leave a comment:


  • wyrdhamster
    replied
    Just seen Last Witch Hunter and it give me great alchemist character idea - Modern potion maker that is selling her mixtures as "special coctails" in her bar. It's just brilliant and I totally will do Acanthus character with Matter like this.

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  • Freemind
    replied
    Originally posted by arthexis View Post
    Fine, make it 3 dots then.

    ​In fact, this conversation and a few others have made me want to dive into the new book even more. I can't fathom how much discussion we will be having when people disagree with the book's new definition of Practices and the Arcana purviews. I just hope there are more than enough spells to build a large enough base of precedents, which will probably be even more useful to me as a ST than the definitions, which can be more easily twisted with language.
    Agreed. I hate having to build these hypothesis from scraps that could change; Dave recently revealed that direct attacks now fit the appropriate practice (using Time to harm someone is perfecting, while using life is Fraying) which is different than what most people got (myself included) from the initial posts. I really think having set examples will be great, as well as the final concrete rulesets, both to know what actually is the case and so that my game can move forward from 1.5 to true 2e. Waiting for this book is killing me (an my players).

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  • arthexis
    replied
    Fine, make it 3 dots then.

    ​In fact, this conversation and a few others have made me want to dive into the new book even more. I can't fathom how much discussion we will be having when people disagree with the book's new definition of Practices and the Arcana purviews. I just hope there are more than enough spells to build a large enough base of precedents, which will probably be even more useful to me as a ST than the definitions, which can be more easily twisted with language.

    Leave a comment:


  • Freemind
    replied
    Originally posted by Mrmdubois View Post
    If you contained a spell inside of an object with that logic then the Duration would still run out.
    This was my point arthexis. As Mrm points out, there is nothing about a matter shielding effect that would prevent the spells effects from activating or progressing as they normally would (except it might prevent those effects from effecting or being limited by certain types of matter. Time can shield processes from unfolding and progressing (there is a spell that essentially protects the target from having any biological processes from time, which means they stop aging, aren't effected by poison, bleeding or other changes that occur overtime while still leaving the target alive and active). Thus, unlike matter, it does have in its purview to prevent the imago from unfolding until the shielding is lifted; the "bubble" you describe is specific to Time as it is not the practice of shielding itself that what I described was inherent to, but rather specific to Time and how the shielding practice interacts with it.

    Dave has stated Hanging a spell is itself a spell, that lets you suspend another spell within it, and the spell that is hung is prevented from progressing until the time hanging spell ends. That said, now that you mention it, I don't remember if it is shielding, though my point was more that if remains 2 dots, it would fit his other hints of shielding things from the effects of time.

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  • Mrmdubois
    replied
    If you contained a spell inside of an object with that logic then the Duration would still run out.

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  • arthexis
    replied
    Freemind I agree with every point you made, almost.

    ​There is just one that's kind of wonky. It probably is correct, but it is wonky nonetheless: Do we know Time 2 used for hanging spells is a Shielding or Veiling practice? If we do, then I missed when Dave mentioned it. I don't say it won't be, just that we are not sure. The fun thing is that then I could twist a reason for using Matter 2 in the same logic: I could argue that I am using Matter Shielding to "contain" the effect of a spell without spilling out. When the Matter is broken or digested, the effect leaks out. Same thing.

    You could then say, well Matter shouldn't be able to contain spells at 2 dots, because Matter doesn't interact like that with magic. But then, why can Time do it? You bubble up a spell with Time, you should also be able to bubble up a spell with Matter then. Could you do it with Weaving? For sure. Can you do it with Veiling or Shielding? As demonstrated, its debatable, but it is not unjustifiable either using the same logic.

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  • Ephsy
    replied
    Who says they can't attach the grimoire to an actual rock?

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  • MCN
    replied
    Originally posted by wyrdhamster View Post
    For a game where 1/5th of all characters are calling themselves Alchemists ( I mean Moros Path in 2ED ) and are capable of changing and shaping both Elements ( by Matter ) and Prime Materia ( by Prime ), Mage has very little info about Philosopher's Stone – legendary “substance”(???) that is said to change any matter in to another, cure any sickness and grant immortality. It’s such a loss the books does not dwell in to this topic, especially as Alchemists quest for finding Lapis Philosophorum. ( other name for Stone ) is very large theme in real world occultism. Also, obvious great crossovers could be made with Promethean based on this subject. So let’s make it, here in this topic!
    I don't know if anyone mentioned this already, but...

    Grimoire of Grimoires covered the Book of Life which did all the things that you suggest the Philosopher's Stone could do. The History of the grimoire even refers to the Philosopher's Stone. I submit that the Philosopher's Stone is actually that grimoire. That was my impression when I first read about it, and I retain that view today.

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