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Endgame Ascension Goal: erect a new Watchtower

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  • Endgame Ascension Goal: erect a new Watchtower

    So I was thinking it would be great to do saga style long term Mage game where you start before you awaken as a mortal, or even as a Promethean, awaken do the immediate story as apprentices, doing downtime after each story or so giving you an arcana till you reach normal starting magedom. Get a legacy, even potentially invent your own legacy, and become an archmage and ideally erect a Watchtower as your act of ascension. This is a natural tie in to the alternate watchtower thread. An Idea is this is a major triumph against the Exarchs, perhaps with a Sixth Watchtower people start noticing the rate of awakens seem to increase as well. Maybe even you could start the group as the first generation of the new watchtowers and they ascend to be the ones responsible for making them, or just kickstart a new era of change for the awakened. Naturally GotV would need to slightly step up there game to compensate. You could have each member of the cabal erect a watchtower from a discovered supernal realm when they Ascend or have the cabal have multiple goals like two work together as archmages to erect a new watchtower, and another decides to knock off an Exarch, another raises up a supernal god, and another founds a new order of Mages. I know it would be a crazy long term chronicle but I think it could such an epic story to strive for if you know you can run a many year game!

  • #2
    Oh come on I know I posted from my phone but I double spaced! Here is the Alternate watchtower thread link. If you did this in game what type of watchtower would you establish, your choice of themes, primary arcana, and inferior Arcana. You could even have two subtle or gross Arcana. And what do you think the implications would be to having a Watchtower of of two subtle or gross arcana, or of opening access to a supernal real that the Exarchs don't have Dominion in?


    • #3
      Whoops kept on forgetting this,


      • #4
        Originally posted by Eldagusto View Post
        or of opening access to a supernal real that the Exarchs don't have Dominion in?
        The "Supernal Realms" are not a set of distinct locations. They are all one entity, and concepts such as space or time are irrelevant there. In other words, the Supernal realms are not a place you can walk around in or travel between, they are the blueprints of reality, and what you see when you visit the Supernal depends entirely on which supernal Symbols you choose to inspect. The Supernal realms only seem different because of people's perspective. If it seems as though you are in the Primal Wild, that's just because you're only looking at the Supernal symbols associated with the primal wild. If, after finding yourself in the Primal Wild, you instead chose to look at the supernal symbols of the Aether, you would immediately be there instead.

        So to say that one can discover a Supernal realm that the Exarchs have no dominion in implies that either you have discovered a concept the Exarchs have never before considered, or you have discovered a supernal symbol which is irrelevant to the Exarchs, or you have discovered a supernal symbol which contradicts the very being of the Exarchs. The third possibility could be considered a terrible prospect, as it implies that Abyss has somehow managed to corrupt the Supernal itself by imposing two contradictory concepts on the fabric of reality.
        Last edited by Strill; 02-25-2014, 11:41 PM.


        • #5
          You are over simplifying things i feel to the point of error I feel. You say the supernal is Truth and experienced through symbols, but there is more to it then that, and there is still a lot of mystery. The main stomping grounds of the Oracles and Exarchs are in experiencing the Supernal through the 5 known Realms, these are the 5 perceptions of the Supernal that the Oracles built Watch Towers in, and that the Exarchs established Dominion, and the 5 realms who had the most old gods Usurped. They leave the rest for the story teller to decide also figuring most games aren't going to need to worry about. But this thread is specifically about it so I'm suggesting perhaps that beyond the five realms the other realms have less Exarch Control. There are finite Exarchs and they are outnumbered by the vast supernal. It is reasonable to posit that they stuck to divide and conquer, and chose to simplify there rule of the universe through concentrating on only the 5 known realms, as these are the five that the oracles leak to the Fallen world.


          • #6
            There's a lot of suggestions for additional Watchtowers in the Mage Chronicler's Guide and the Tremere section of Left-hand Path


            • #7
              I don’t think an archmaster would need to seek out a “realm” in the Supernal that isn’t dominated by the Exarchs — or rather, he already did so when he completed his Threshold Seeking and established his Cintimani. Creating a new Watchtower would likely involve transforming his Cintimani into a Watchtower Realm — and very likely transforming himself into the new Watchtower when he finally Ascends.


              • #8
                A dual 9th dot spell could be an approach.
                (Egad, going from Promethean to Ascension would be an impressive trip.)

                Grump, grouse, and/or gripe.


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dataweaver View Post
                  I don’t think an archmaster would need to seek out a “realm” in the Supernal that isn’t dominated by the Exarchs — or rather, he already did so when he completed his Threshold Seeking and established his Cintimani. Creating a new Watchtower would likely involve transforming his Cintimani into a Watchtower Realm — and very likely transforming himself into the new Watchtower when he finally Ascends.
                  While completing your Cintimani leaves you on your own Path detached from that of the Watchtowers, I'd say that a lot of archmasters do have trouble getting over the conceptual approach of distinct Supernal Realms, and it's not something integrated by a mere mechanistic acknowledgement of the idea.

                  I would say that a Seeker who wants to construct a new Watchtower would first need to develop a fairly comprehensive idea of what a Watchtower is, and then create through discovery the conceptual basis for a "new" Realm for it to stand in and represent. Meditations on and experiments in the Phenomenal World and the archmaster's own Chantries are probably the safest, but slowest, way to go about this. Actual explorations in the Supernal itself may be quicker, as the mage carries hirself through Lustrum journey narratives which actively force a shift in their frame of references, but this is the more dangerous route due to the threat of the Exarchs, Old Gods (possibly including those who like inhabiting a perspective which is not yet so overtly dominated by humanocentric symbolism), Aponia and soul exhaustion; that's not to say it couldn't or shouldn't be done, just that it's more daring.

                  I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                  Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.


                  • #10
                    Building on that, I’d say that an archmaster needs to have at least two Imperial Arcana before he has any chance of establishing the Watchtower. I’d also say that the task of founding a new Watchtower is made considerably easier if at least one of those Imperial Arcana was not a Ruling Arcanum for the Seeker’s former Path, as that forces the archmaster to think outside the lines established by that Path.

                    Rationale: adding a second Imperial Arcanum to your cintimani changes its Supernal “address”: if the two Arcana don’t correspond to the Ruling Arcana of an existing Watchtower, this automatically moves the Seeker’s perspective out of the known Realms; and if they correspond to a Watchtower that the Seeker isn’t intimately familiar with, the cintimani is arguably on the “outskirts” of that Realm, if not outside it entirely. All that’s left is to come up with a coherent symbol that integrates the two Arcana as a complementary pair.

                    The task of building a new Watchtower is also made easier if the two Imperial Arcana consist of one that’s Subtle and one that’s Gross, as such pairings are already halfway-complementary. That’s not to say that you can’t come up with a “complementary Arcana” symbol for a Subtle/Subtle or Gross/Gross pair (Time/Space comes to mind); but the tasks involved would be considerably more difficult.

                    As a worked example: a theurge crosses the Threshold using Forces and establishes his Cintimani in the Aether. In his studies of the Mysteries hiding in Arabian mythology, he develops a mastery of Spirit to the point that he can perform a second Threshold Seeking. Once that’s accomplished, his Cintimani is imbued most strongly with Forces and Spirit, and is “relocated” out of the Aether. The Seeker now looks for (or creates) a Supernal symbol that establishes Forces and Spirit as a complementary pair: borrowing from his research into Arabian mythology, Solomon hits upon the Djinn: “spirits” made of smokeless fire. That forms the nexus around which a new Watchtower can coalesce. After Sealing and Exalting the appropriate Omens, Solomon Ascends; per his Noumenon, the Watchtower of Brass and Flame appears in his Cintimani, now a land where forces manifest as djinn-like entities. In the Phenomenal World, the first sorcerers Awaken to a new Path.

                    Another example, based on Eldagusto’s original suggestion: a Promethean Redeems and becomes a regular human with an interest in alchemy. Sometime later, she Awakens to the Watchtower of the Lead Coin and begins walking the Path of Doom. Something about that Path doesn’t sit right with her though: it’s too focused on stripping away dross and not enough on the subsequent stages of the Magnum Opus. Eventually, she performs her first Threshold Seeking and becomes an Archmaster specializing in Matter, with her Cintimani sitting on the outskirts of Stygia. As she looks into the Mysteries of alchemy, she can’t help but notice similarities between Prime and the Divine Fire that she used to be intimately connected with. This research eventually lets her add Prime to her Cintimani as a second Imperial Arcanum, acting as a Subtle transformative principle that transmutes the soul in a manner similar to how Matter transmutes physical substances (such as lead into gold). This duality also provides the foundation upon which the Watchtower of the Copper Mallet will eventually be built. As a fringe benefit: when she finally Ascends and establishes the Path of Excellence, Prime will have been subtly altered so that Pyros and related phenomena will now fall under its purview.
                    Last edited by Dataweaver; 02-28-2014, 08:06 PM. Reason: layout


                    • #11
                      Yeah, stuff like what Dataweaver is saying there gives a good handle for how stuff like this isn't just a matter of a spell, but an extensive metaphysical thesis.

                      One should consider that, as you go higher in the Practices, your occult studies aren't just a matter of figuring out how to cast spells, but figuring out what to actually cast spells at. Consider how much of, say, Entities and Excision alone would require you to know what a thing is composed of and how all those parts interact with one another before you even have a firm conceptual basis for what your spells can meaningfully add or remove. Sometimes the results of such inquiries then form the quintessence for the resulting spell, but sometimes it's actually just the quintessence for the spell necessary to create the quintessence for the desired spell.

                      As this pertains to the subject at hand, if we assumed that a Watchtower is the result of one spell rather than a bunch of separate ones that need to be assembled together in some manner, it's still quite possibly a spell that requires a quintessence that comes at the end of a long chain of Imperial spell generated quintessences, which form the steps of the path of inquiry into the nature of things.

                      This gets even more fun when you interface it with the Imperium system; consider the enormous challenge difficulty generated by the level 5 Omen that is erecting a new Watchtower, the significant quest that the universe will generate for you to have to overcome to achieve it, and the tools an archmaster might use to lower that difficulty. Imagine what an archmaster trying to create a new Watchtower using mage or even mortal proxies looks like.

                      At the moment, I'm thinking about the False Awakening, where the mage involved was being distantly guided by an archmaster who was trying to pursue a path of study and inquiry through the use of a proxy (the results are thus far inconclusive, as represented by the challenge being split into multiple ones to also lower the difficulty).

                      I have approximate knowledge of many things.
                      Write up as I play Xenoblade Chronicles.


                      • #12
                        Archmasters who have visited the Watchtowers after their Threshold Seeking have discerned that the Watchtowers are Talismans of some sort or another. They haven't figured out the details of how they work. The traditional mythology holds that the Oracles were in possession of secret knowledge that allowed them to erect the Watchtowers after the Exarchs shattered the Celestial Ladder. Tradition also dictates that the Watchtowers were based off the way the Ocean Spire called the souls of humans to the Dragon Isle to begin with.

                        So it seems to me that the first step to building a new Watchtower would be to find Atlantis and study the Ocean Spire to learn what the Oracles did with their Talismans that let them create the five known Watchtowers.


                        • #13
                          Given the nature of the most powerful magics, (Imperium Rites, Transfiguration/Assumption; i think that Assumption can emulate any Imperium Rite) i think that several methods can work.
                          Create a new watchtower is a five dot omen (But build a new Celestial Ladder also; it's weird because i think a Celestial Ladder is very more than a Watchtower; and both are more than a "simple" Ascension but the fact that Assumption Ascension needs also a five dot omen suggesting that all three have equivalent "values"); implying an epic quest.

                          But that could be also one of these "alternative effects" at the "Assumption Ascension"

                          But using these two "reality-warping" methods does not prove that the Oracles have created the Watchtowers by this way.

                          If we must seek the true metaphysic of the Watchtowers; it is interesting to note that the watchtowers are talismans merged with mobile (!) lustrums, the talismans generate their lustrums rather than the reverse. (since the Archmasters)
                          What archmasters dot't understand is how the Oracles did it and how talismans pass through the Abyss for awaken new mages.

                          In my opinion, The Siddhi may have a point : Arcana seems to be a more true real divisions in the Supernal than "Supernal Realms*" (the ten exarchates) and the Iron Seals each claim to an arcanum. (but maybe the Arcana are only introduced by dragons conventions, and are worth not much more than any Influence or conceptual domains that other Dhatus can claim)

                          *Wich are just symbols/lustrums

                          So watchtowers are maybe anchored relative to the ten arcana.

                          An interesting test would be to create a talisman of an arcanum (rank 9 ?) and try to use the Assumption to ascend the Talisman in a another Arcanum’s associated Supernal Realm. (a gross/subtle combination, of course)
                          Maybe the talisman will merges with a Lustrum enthroned in a another arcanum; mutually reinforcing in a double-arcana Cintamani; naturally find a new conceptual space maybe rejected by the other arcanum of the Supernal Realm (The Inferior Arcanum ?) and maybe by natural repulsion/affinity between the Arcanas/Exarchs for the Four Watchtowers of the Oracles.

                          "Mobility" of the Watchtowers could be explained by the constant movement to stay in to stay in balance with the two arcanas; and perhaps by the repulsion of the Inferior Arcanum and/or the mere fact of being fixed to moving forces than fixed symbols (Ascendeds Siddhas are fixed because they are entroned in only one arcanum; or maybe they are not : we don't know if all ascensions ways give exactly the same result : what is known by archmasters about the Ascendeds concern only Golden Road's Ascendeds) or maybe the link between the Exarchs and the Arcanas make them a little unstable.


                          • #14
                            In my mind, the realms essentially mimic the story of the blind men and the elephant:
                            Once upon a time, there lived five blind men in a village. One day the villagers told them, "Hey, there is an elephant in the village today."
                            They had no idea what an elephant is. They decided, "Even though we would not be able to see it, let us go and feel it anyway." All of them went where the elephant was. Everyone of them touched the elephant.
                            "Hey, the elephant is a spear," said the first man who touched his tusk.
                            "Oh, no! it is like a rope," said the second man who touched the tail.
                            "Oh, no! it is like a thick branch of a tree," said the third man who touched the trunkof the elephant.
                            "It is like a big hand fan" said the fourth man who touched the ear of the elephant.
                            "It is like a huge wall," said the fifth man who touched the belly of the elephant.

                            They began to argue about the elephant and everyone of them insisted that he was right. It looked like they were getting agitated. A wise man was passing by and he saw this. He stopped and asked them, "What is the matter?" They said, "We cannot agree to what the elephant is like." Each one of them told what he thought the elephant was like. The wise man calmly explained to them, "All of you are right, yet none of you are. The reason every one of you is telling it differently because each one of you touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all those features what you all said, yet is none of those things themselves."
                            When a mage awakens, he is limited in his understanding, and can only touch a small part of the supernal through the watchtower, which only can encompass so much understanding of the supernal. Therefore, the realms are each experienced as completely different, instead of all part of one whole dimension. There are no actual realms, as they are merely limited understandings based on what they mage already knows in some manner. Even mages of the same path encounter the watchtowers in different manners, with no two awakenings identical, with even the watchtower descriptions varying to a degree in each. I don't like the concrete supernal realms, as it makes them just another place to go. Making them abstract symbols that are interpreted in the context of the mind as a realm (kinda like how if you read a story about an island, you envision the island and not the words) makes the supernal much more significant.

                            I agree with Data, Ces, Istator and Suleri: Watchtower's are Lustrums that resonate with not a single Archmage but an entire subset of humanity, and the core of this is a Talisman that both calls the soul and manifests the Lustrum so as to control the awakening mage's exposure to the supernal. To create a new tower, you would have to both build a Citamani with enough breadth of Supernal symbols to provide sufficent exposure to a new mage, while also constructing a new lens through which to view these symbols which resonates with a subset of humanities souls. And then you need a talisman that both beckons those souls that resonate, and also guides them through the Lumen. I personally think that it should be the archmage himself, as he ascends, his gold road expanding ever wider till it creates a means for new souls to uncover the supernal.


                            • #15
                              are Lustrums that resonate with not a single Archmage but an entire subset of humanity,

                              Personally I always preferred the idea that humanity had been warped to fit the watchtowers rather than the other way around. However benevolent, the Oracles were still Atlanteans after all.